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Terry Shiavo's brain was half the normal weight; Autopsy found no evidence of abuse
Topic Started: Jun 15 2005, 08:10 AM (4,303 Views)
kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
http://www.cnn.com/2005/HEALTH/06/15/schia...y.ap/index.html

How does this affect the positions of people who were for or against removing her feeding tube?

Seems to me she had no hope for recovery.
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
kenny
Jun 15 2005, 08:10 AM
http://www.cnn.com/2005/HEALTH/06/15/schia...y.ap/index.html

How does this affect the positions of people who were for or against removing her feeding tube?

Seems to me she had no hope for recovery.

I don't think your statement can be substantiated.

There are medical cases on record, where people functioned in a "normal" capacity, with no more brain that Ms. Schivo had.

As for CNN's cursory review of her post, a few notes:

1. No signs of hypoxia. Well, nobody ever alleged (that I know of) that her husband strangled her. It wasalleged that he had possibly given her an OD of insulin. This would not have shown up on gross, and would not have appeared on a routine forensic tox screen.

2. No signs of toxic substances. I would assume (dangerous thing to do) that testing was done by GLC, and they were primarily looking for heavy metals, or residual organic poisons. Nobody ever alleged these were used.

3. As far as I know ( some studies to the contrary) neurons do not regenerate in anybody.


What did the autopsy tell us that we did not know?

Nothing.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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The 89th Key
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Wait, I thought the cheating-husband had her cremated ASAP?
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greg
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Middle Aged Carp
only in your fantasy-world.
"What do you think it is, stupid? It's a string for my lute."
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The 89th Key
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No, thats actually exactly what they were reporting when she was in the last few hours of her life. If things have changed since then, so be it.
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
In the last few hours of her life they were reporting that her husband had cremated her?
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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The 89th Key
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No, that he wanted to do it ASAP
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Long before the last few hours, the husband announced that he'd granted permission for an autopsy. The issue was, after they were done, burial at the family plot in Pa. vs. cremation.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Apparently, the medical examiner concluded that she was blind during the relevant time. So much for the idea that she was responding to visual stimuli. He also concluded that she would have been unable to eat on her own, without a feeding tube, another point that was hotly argued at the time.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
kenny
Jun 15 2005, 11:10 AM
How does this affect the positions of people who were for or against removing her feeding tube?

Seems to me she had no hope for recovery.

Doesn't affect my position at all. They had to remove her brain to determine what we know now which is not much (as Jolly indicated). They did far less than that before to determine her condition. Based on what we knew then I see no reason why I would have any different position.

I seem to remember certain people ( I think her name starts with a K ;)) insisting, with no basis in fact, that Terri's brain was completely liquified. Nonexistent. It appears that was not the case.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
QuirtEvans
Jun 15 2005, 10:05 AM
Apparently, the medical examiner concluded that she was blind during the relevant time. So much for the idea that she was responding to visual stimuli. He also concluded that she would have been unable to eat on her own, without a feeding tube, another point that was hotly argued at the time.

How did he know?

A -scans postmortem are not effective.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
QuirtEvans
Jun 15 2005, 09:45 AM
Long before the last few hours, the husband announced that he'd granted permission for an autopsy. The issue was, after they were done, burial at the family plot in Pa. vs. cremation.

The autopsy was performed quickly. Much faster than a routine forensic autopsy. You could hang yourself in the lobby, and I couldn't get a guy to do you for at least a week.

Independent observation was not allowed. Now, while this is not unprecedented, it ishighly unusual. Most forensic pathologists worth their salt do not mind another set of trained eyeballs during gross.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Quote:
 
How did he know?


I have no idea. Egads, it must be part of the huge conspiracy! Either that, or he must be sleeping with the biased and unprofessional guardian ad litem!

Or both!

But that was what he concluded. Are you claiming that there's no possible way he could have reached that conclusion, and that he must be making it up?
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
QuirtEvans
Jun 15 2005, 11:47 AM
Quote:
 
How did he know?


I have no idea. Egads, it must be part of the huge conspiracy! Either that, or he must be sleeping with the biased and unprofessional guardian ad litem!

Or both!

But that was what he concluded. Are you claiming that there's no possible way he could have reached that conclusion, and that he must be making it up?

I am saying without review of the autopsy records, it would be a very hard call to say that she could not see.

Furthermore, the medical definition of blind might surprise you.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Nina
Senior Carp
I read the blindness as due to damage past the eye--specifically the visual cortex had atrophied or was somehow nonfunctional.

Her eyes themselves (and anything found on an a-scan) could have been perfectly normal but still her brain was unable to receive the signals and translate them into anything approaching vision.

At least that's how I read it.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
That would make sense, Nina.

And it's a better story than the notion that the medical examiner is yet another professional who was either incompetent or has an ulterior motive for saying that Terri was in a permanently vegetative state.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Nina
Jun 15 2005, 12:13 PM
I read the blindness as due to damage past the eye--specifically the visual cortex had atrophied or was somehow nonfunctional.

Her eyes themselves (and anything found on an a-scan) could have been perfectly normal but still her brain was unable to receive the signals and translate them into anything approaching vision.

At least that's how I read it.

The visual cortex may be atrophied, but unless it is non-existent, how can a call of total blindness be made?
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Ok, I answered my own question, but I still have issues with that call.

And the insulin theory, especially later during care, cannot be disproved, nor can initial poisoning theories, since the the toxicology upon admission was by fluorescent polarization immunoassay, and not gas-liquid chromatography.

Two points that need to be re-emphasized...

1. No matter what our resident shyster says, a forensic autopsy on the day after death is highly unusual. So is the fact that most CAP fellows do not mind another path in the room while they are doing gross.

I challenge anybody to refute that last statement. Period.

2. Cause of death? Unknown. Hypokalemia was the mitigating factor of admission, but the other chemistries such as the TP & ALB could easily be explained by bolus. The hypokalemia explanation is/was not sufficient for the path to call the ball.

Wanna argue with that statement?

Well, here's the post:

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0615051terri1.html
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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ycul
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Junior Carp
Jolly
Jun 15 2005, 11:38 PM
Ok, I answered my own question, but I still have issues with that call.

And the insulin theory, especially later during care, cannot be disproved, nor can initial poisoning theories, since the the toxicology upon admission was by fluorescent polarization immunoassay, and not gas-liquid chromatography.

Two points that need to be re-emphasized...

1. No matter what our resident shyster says, a forensic autopsy on the day after death is highly unusual. So is the fact that most CAP fellows do not mind another path in the room while they are doing gross.

I challenge anybody to refute that last statement. Period.

2. Cause of death? Unknown. Hypokalemia was the mitigating factor of admission, but the other chemistries such as the TP & ALB could easily be explained by bolus. The hypokalemia explanation is/was not sufficient for the path to call the ball.

Wanna argue with that statement?

Well, here's the post:

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0615051terri1.html

The above post may give the false impression that Jolly knows and understands something about medicine. In fact this could not be further from the truth. For irrefutable evidence to the contrary check number four on this link. It is a statement delivered in the manner of someone of who is an authority on the subject and yet is entirely wrong. The scenario isn't even an unusual one as I've recently discovered from an oncologist.
Just helping people to see these posts in context. :)

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ulti...ic/10/7336.html
How now, brown cow.
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Jack Frost
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Bull-Carp
All of which goes to show if you don't have an open mind, you will find exactly what you are looking for.

Jolly, please enlighten us with an example of someone with a half a brain who functions normally.....oh, I didn't realize we were including fish and possum in this......

jf

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Let it be said by our children's children that when we were tested we refused to let this journey end, that we did not turn back nor did we falter; and with eyes fixed on the horizon and God's grace upon us, we carried forth that great gift of freedom and delivered it safely to future generations.
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Jeffrey
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ycul - :)
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
I'll bet you wouldn't ask *me* that question........ :sombrero: :tongue:
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Was thinking of offering yourself as a living example, eh, Larry? ;) :D
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The 89th Key
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Kenny to answer your original question, these new findings have ZERO effect on my original stance.

I don't see why they couldn't have done more tests on her while she was still alive. If they had done the autopsy and found that she was actually more alive than what was reported...MAN would we all feel bad! Especially those who called for her death!

So I dont see why these new findings would effect the previous situation at all. Thanks for the link though Kenny.
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Phlebas
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Bull-Carp
The 89th Key
Jun 15 2005, 08:48 PM
Kenny to answer your original question, these new findings have ZERO effect on my original stance.


Which is why we can use you as an example of someone who does not respond to external stimuli.

Kenny,
The autopsy seems frustratingly inconclusive to me. I think people with strong opinions before did not have them changed as a result. For example, I wanted her to die with dignity, and I thought the legislative branch had better things to concern themselves with. My opinion has not changed.
Random FML: Today, I was fired by my boss in front of my coworkers. It would have been nice if I could have left the building before they started celebrating. FML

The founding of the bulk of the world's nation states post 1914 is based on self-defined nationalisms. The bulk of those national movements involve territory that was ethnically mixed. The foundation of many of those nation states involved population movements in the aftermath. When the only one that is repeatedly held up as unjust and unjustifiable is the Zionist project, the term anti-semitism may very well be appropriate. - P*D


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