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Teen Titans #83; May 2010
Topic Started: Feb 16 2010, 05:16 PM (5,831 Views)
dl316bh
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GhettoMac
Feb 18 2010, 11:58 PM
Probably why everyones feelin a little bleak around here.

Everyone would probably feel a lot better if they stopped taking every bit of fan speculation at face value. Because that's what most of these rumblings are. Speculation from folks elsewhere.

Folks shouldn't get depressed until there's a reason to.
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Plissken
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Fan speculation? We basically a rather blunt and straightforward answer from the mouth of Didio of where Raven is heading.

I mean, regardless of the outcome, the next few months--and let's hope its just months--might be pretty painful to have to wait through.
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Plissken
Feb 19 2010, 12:36 AM
Fan speculation? We basically a rather blunt and straightforward answer from the mouth of Didio of where Raven is heading.

Yes. Changed and not for the better. It doesn't get much more vague. For all we know this issue is the start of some arc where the Wyld has control of Raven for a couple issues and that's it. Or maybe Brother Blood returns and takes control of her for a spell like before. It could mean anything. But more and more it seems like many of us jump at the worst possible conclusion and angst ourselves to death.
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Lizard-Man
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Do you think writers don't have many ideas of what to do with Raven thematically besides turn her evil? Cause she seems to be stuck in that stigma.
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Plissken
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Closing on five years since the OYL that screwed this title up, and amidst a time in the DC editorial world where they seem to have abdicated any investment in the Titans franchise, its hard not to assume a bunch of bull **** is about to come before it finally course corrects. Even with the new changes in DC's structures, it will take time for things to straighten out--I imagine at least until this coming mystic's event is concluded.

Can you blame people for lacking in confidence. The Titans book already sounds like dead weight--it'd have been one thing if they had given us a gray Deathstroke title, but instead its quite obvious it'll be a villains book--while Teen Titans continues to be an angst written YJ whore fest.

What we need is new blood.

We need a quelling. @____@

Burn them all... except Didio, Johns, Morrison, Simone... several others...

...

Lets just go tie Judd Winnick to a tree and spank his ass with cricket bats.
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Lizard-Man
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That doesn't seem very fair, I mean OYL was an editorial decision, shouldn't you be pissed off more at the editors for that instead of the writers? I mean you said it yourself, it started it all.
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Assuming this "mystic event" thing is anything more than rumor. The next event hasn't even been hinted at yet; the only thing we know is that there's supposed to be a Geoff Johns event project not related to Green Lantern or Superman and it might not even be the next event post-War of the Supermen. From what I've gathered the "mystic event" is more speculation than anything based on a page from a comic I can't remember offhand that featured mystical characters trapped in stone.

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Can you blame people for lacking in confidence.

Lack of confidence? No. I'm not confident in the title right now either, which I've made known. But this rampant pessimism does no one any good. All it does is make everyone depressed when we have no real idea what's going to happen. And really, what does that accomplish but make for a negative environment to discuss... f***, anything at all?
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Plissken
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Lizard-Man
Feb 19 2010, 01:11 AM
That doesn't seem very fair, I mean OYL was an editorial decision, shouldn't you be pissed off more at the editors for that instead of the writers? I mean you said it yourself, it started it all.

No. I know sometimes my penchant for dramatics makes it unclear what I believe or mean--

I don't exactly blame the OYL. Not exactly.

It was, in the end, Johns' decision to do what he did. Part of it, as we know better now, was because he knew he was being pulled off the book, and part of it was a real desire to have Gar set up as a bigger player in the DCU.

But the decisions were bad.

So I don't blame the OYL. The reason the OYL was bad was only in the sense that it put that opportunity under Geoff's pen.

If the OYL hadn't happen, I think Johns would have stuck to the course and kept going forward with Gar and Raven taking charge of the team and introducing new characters like Rose and Eddie.

But I can't blame just the OYL--that was just an occasion that let Johns wipe everything away and attempt to start anew.

The only other problem was the lead-up, with how much story telling got sucked up into being crossover material or lead-up material to Infinite Crisis.

Unfortunately, that's been the consistent trend with Titans--no real stories of their own, and constantly being involved in events or cross-overs that generally go nowhere and end with a pointless roster switch that forced them to ONCE AGAIN return to square one.
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The problem with OYL is that it worked for some books and failed with others. With Batman, it helped the franchise wipe the slate a bit clean and get thing back from the abyss of suck the War Games crossover had left it in before Morrison and Dini rocketed it to a better place. Several now revered titles came out of the OYL jump. Superman got a bit of a slate cleaning too and a clean break before Geoff took over and turned things up to eleven. The Justice League recovered - for a while at least - and pushed forward.

Others floundered though. Geoff just couldn't make anything out of the fresh slate he was trying to put forward with Teen Titans; a fresh slate that also saw constant and frustrating delays. Nightwing... well, sucked about as much as it did before OYL. Wonder Woman had a controversial and much delayed opening arc that killed it's momentum. Delays were everywhere.

It failed in some respects, but I personally believe that the OYL jump was a good idea that could have worked.
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Plissken
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I'll say mixed bag, and ultimately failed execution (not a failed concept).

This was in part because of the attempt to have a story gap get filled in by 52, but the majority of story arcs had to be filled in by the book itself, or there were continuity conflicts, or they were simply dropped altogether and never really answered--case in point being BB/Rae, as 52 demonstrated that up to at last two weeks before the OYL issue, Gar was still leading the Titans and he and Raven were still together. So what happened? Well... who the hell knows. Nearly five years later and we still have no clue what exactly happened, made more aggravating by the fact that initially it seemed more like Gar fell into a depression and cut himself off from raven, but over time now it looks like it was Raven who cut him off and... well hell if we know if she even still cares for him, as we STILL have not had a chance to get her perspective on everything.

And Lizard, I tend to agree--no one outside Geoff Johns seems to have any clue of what to do with Raven these days.

We'll see what Felicia has planned. Maybe she'll give us something new. At the very least, the Wyld is someone new for her to face off against. That's more than can be said about what Winnick gave us.
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Lizard-Man
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Fair enough, back to my original question though about Raven:

"Do you think writers don't have many ideas of what to do with Raven thematically besides turn her evil? Cause she seems to be stuck in that stigma. "
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I've written off getting a detailed explanation on what happened. The only way to make sense of it is to take things at face value. The team fell apart, everyone went their separate ways. Waiting for a story to fill that gap would be maddening, because shippers like us are really the only ones who give a ****. For pretty much everyone else, the missing year is ancient history.

On if Raven still cares for him, I think it's pretty clear that she does - hell, the "breakup" in Titans was deliberately written to be Romeo and Juliet-esque "I'm doing this for our own good" type of thing - though we have not gotten into her head in a long time. But that's something of the nature of her. She's always portrayed as the more reserved character who doesn't voice her feelings quite as much as Gar might. But there have been plenty of clues that she does; it's just that the situation hasn't been addressed yet. It doesn't help that we've gotten only three issues of content with the two on the same team in five months thanks to the Blackest Night tie-in, which is definitely making everyone anxious.

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"Do you think writers don't have many ideas of what to do with Raven thematically besides turn her evil? Cause she seems to be stuck in that stigma. "

I think "Evil Raven" is one of those storylines that is so iconic pretty much everyone wants to do their own spin on it or build off it. That seems to be the chief problem. Gar has a similar issue in that some writers simply could not let the Terra business stay six feet under. If they tried, I'm sure writers could figure out what to do with her; it's just that they don't because they seem to have sparkles in their eyes at the notion of doing a good "Evil Raven" story with their spin on it.
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Plissken
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Lizard-Man
Feb 19 2010, 01:37 AM
Fair enough, back to my original question though about Raven:

"Do you think writers don't have many ideas of what to do with Raven thematically besides turn her evil? Cause she seems to be stuck in that stigma. "

To which I answered:

"And Lizard, I tend to agree--no one outside Geoff Johns seems to have any clue of what to do with Raven these days."

What else is there to say? Yeah, that's the only idea they have. Raven turning evil. Oh, we had Trigon return... which went no where. But even then, what do you think the point, the conflict, the danger, the result and threat, of Trigon returning was going to be?

... Yeah, Raven turning evil.

So, yeah, no one has shown any idea of what to do with Raven. Johns finally was setting up Raven as being more in control of her life, which is where BB/Rae was coming in--Raven was choosing Gar over Blood, resisting her heritage--part of the reason for getting that tattoo, if you recall. This development in her character was actually an extension of what Wolfman was doing prior to her second fall to evil--people seem to forget the White Raven era, but the point of that was to have her finally have to deal with her emotions and new-found freedom. It was a story never fully realized or completed by Wolfman, and one I hoped Johns would have continued to follow through on.

But even Wolfman didn't seem to know what to do with Raven after a while. Hence why she went evil lesbian Raven that second time.

So--no. No one else has shown any ideas of what to with Raven. She's either turning evil or getting killed--usually both.
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Lizard-Man
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I'm sorry Pliss I didn't see that. I was paying more attention to OYL discussion and I thought you missed my question sorry.

Yeah that seems to be the general consensus about "evil Raven", you ever wonder if some of these writers are just former Titans fanboys who are being allowed to write their crappy Fanfiction in canon at last?
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Plissken
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You don't have a to apologize, I wasn't getting angry. I'm simply being snarky--yeah, you'd think by now someone could have given Raven an enemy who wasn't just Trigon 2.0 or Evil Raven 6.0.

The fact of the matter is that most writers seemed to be bored by Raven and have no interest in using her. I think this is also because Raven is--SHOCKINGLY--a kind, violence-adverse, and soft-spoken woman in the DCU. Most writers just cant' seem to grasp that, or know how to use it in a comic book about crime fighters.

Only three authors really ever handled Raven well--Wolfman, Grayson, and Johns. Anyone else either shoved her in the background, or more recently, turned her into a goth emo bitch.
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