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Teen Titans #82; April 2010
Topic Started: Jan 16 2010, 04:35 PM (3,195 Views)
KingoftheBeasts
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Not to mention that it can also be a visual problem. I've always found the barefoot look hard to take seriously.


What's not serious about barefeet? What about almost every Bruce Lee movie? If you're looking for a badass factor, I think a guy going around kicking ass barefoot and not being pahsed by it is pretty intimidating. Besides i think there are far more rediculous costume choices than bare feet. The limited peripheral vision of Dr Fate's Helmet, the pointless boob window on PowerGirl's outfit, that pointless over-one-shoulder cape that Captain Marvel has... the list goes on.

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But their origins aren't magical. A dragon is not really born of magic. Nor is a majority of the mythical creatures. They're chiefly fearsome creatures.


It's been my understanding that all the mythical creatures have origins similar to the original myths aside from where otherwise stated. Centaurs and dragons being contruct of the gods whilst demons and angels aren't exactly considered animals either. If dragons were natural in the DCU they would have skeletons in the museums and the common person would know of their existance.
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dl316bh
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What's not serious about barefeet? What about almost every Bruce Lee movie? If you're looking for a badass factor, I think a guy going around kicking ass barefoot and not being pahsed by it is pretty intimidating.

Bruce Lee's doesn't even do it that often that I can recall - I think I can recall one time he didn't have shoes in - and when he does it it's usually along with other articles of clothing. When articles of clothing are lost in Bruce Lee movies, most of the time it's the shirt, not the shoes. Which pretty much signals "It's go time".

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Besides i think there are far more rediculous costume choices than bare feet. The limited peripheral vision of Dr Fate's Helmet, the pointless boob window on PowerGirl's outfit, that pointless over-one-shoulder cape that Captain Marvel has... the list goes on.

Honestly, while some of those are indeed kind of dumb, it doesn't look as visually jarring as a guy running around superheroing barefoot. The boob window is impractical - and honestly, a large part of why it's hard for quite a few people to take the character seriously - but showing cleavage isn't really any big thing anymore. With Doctor Fate, he's a magic guy; it's not hard to figure he might have some spell going or something that makes it easier to see.

I'll put it this way. Running around barefoot while doing superhero stuff reminds me a lot of when female characters are drawn with high heels or boots that have them in combat. Not only is it impractical, but it's jarring; it's hard to miss the fact that your action heroine is doing high kicks with half her foot off the ground held up by the heel and it's kind of hard to miss the oddness of bare green feet on a guy fighting in the city or wherever.

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It's been my understanding that all the mythical creatures have origins similar to the original myths aside from where otherwise stated. Centaurs and dragons being contruct of the gods whilst demons and angels aren't exactly considered animals either. If dragons were natural in the DCU they would have skeletons in the museums and the common person would know of their existance.

Well, kind of hard to tell that; I mean, DC comics don't spend a lot of time set in museums, so that's hard to gauge.

Anyways, note that this is starting to slip into the notion of gods. That's a completely different sect. Magic is generally handled by the mystical realm and entails a whole bunch of other things. Myth is usually wrapped up in the concepts of gods and all the like.

*****

I think we might be best served to agree to disagree; this conversation is kind of going in circles.
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Plissken
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It's been my understanding that all the mythical creatures have origins similar to the original myths aside from where otherwise stated. Centaurs and dragons being contruct of the gods whilst demons and angels aren't exactly considered animals either. If dragons were natural in the DCU they would have skeletons in the museums and the common person would know of their existance.


You gotta let this go a little--fact is DC doesn't spend much time on the origins of random mythological creatures that exist in its universe.

The problem is, the line between science, nature, and mysticism in the DCU is very fuzzy. In fact, the universe itself is mystical to begin with. Everything about it is mystical. Even humanity is hinted at having mystical origins that are mixed with the science of evolution.

What even complicates it more is a character that Geoff Johns revamped--Mr. Terrific, the DCU's most famous atheist.

See, part of his character is that he believes much of the mystical things they face in the universe actually have scientific basis in their reality, humanity simply hasn't figured it out all yet. And from time to time, he has demonstrated that what some call mysticism is easily deciphered with proper (super) science.

So again--things in the DCU aren't easily dividable up into mystical and natural.

As it stands, so far the only real restriction for Gar seems to be humanoid species, like Kryptonians or Tamarians. He hasn't hit that yet, so that seems to be a restriction still in place.
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KingoftheBeasts
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With Doctor Fate, he's a magic guy; it's not hard to figure he might have some spell going or something that makes it easier to see.


So if it makes sense because his theme is magic and there are ways around the disadvantage, then why can't it be accepted for BB to be barefoot with an animal theme cancelling out any sensitivity issues toward sharp rocks. Besides, his human form isn't completely human as he has the pointed ears and semi-elongated canine teeth. I assume his feet would be more durable than average.

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Anyways, note that this is starting to slip into the notion of gods. That's a completely different sect. Magic is generally handled by the mystical realm and entails a whole bunch of other things. Myth is usually wrapped up in the concepts of gods and all the like.


I believe that Gods exist in the realm of magic. I thought that was why Wonder Woman's god given powers have affect on superman.

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I think we might be best served to agree to disagree; this conversation is kind of going in circles.


I couldn't agree more, and I hope this hasn't been tiresome. I for one enjoyed the exchange if for nothing else to know that the questions have been raised.

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As it stands, so far the only real restriction for Gar seems to be humanoid species, like Kryptonians or Tamarians. He hasn't hit that yet, so that seems to be a restriction still in place.


He did turn into a centaur, i'd call that humanoid. Why not other half humans like a merman or a sphinx?
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dl316bh
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Apr 30 2010, 01:39 AM
You gotta let this go a little--fact is DC doesn't spend much time on the origins of random mythological creatures that exist in its universe.

I think it's a little bit broader than that, really. I think DC doesn't think about it's mythological stuff in general at the moment. They're focused on a lot of other avenues and the mythological stuff is kind of at the wayside for now. Though Gail Simone uses some myth based stuff in her Wonder Woman run, from what I know.

Marvel's something of a contrast to this, when you think about it. Thor's always been a big deal in Marvel. A four issue event is running right now based around a siege of Asgard. There's the Incredible Hercules stuff they do. Pretty sure there are one or two other things going right now. While they're not fully immersed in it or anything, Marvel seems to keep something going based on myth more often than not.

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So if it makes sense because his theme is magic and there are ways around the disadvantage, then why can't it be accepted for BB to be barefoot with an animal theme cancelling out any sensitivity issues toward sharp rocks. Besides, his human form isn't completely human as he has the pointed ears and semi-elongated canine teeth. I assume his feet would be more durable than average.

If you really wanted to go that far, I suppose you could, but it looks really impractical on a very basic level. Which is part of the problem. The other part is that I really don't think it looks good; only a couple characters I can think of can rock the barefoot deal properly and often they're characters that were mutated to look different in some way.

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I believe that Gods exist in the realm of magic. I thought that was why Wonder Woman's god given powers have affect on superman.

I'm not sure how that stands, actually. I'm not a big Wonder Woman guy. I'm not even sure there's a real answer to the question.

As mentioned, DC doesn't deal a lot with mythological stuff lately, so it's a hard question to answer.

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I couldn't agree more, and I hope this hasn't been tiresome. I for one enjoyed the exchange if for nothing else to know that the questions have been raised.

Not really tiresome. Just recognizing that we're not really getting anywhere with the discussion and it's running into the wee hours of the morning. So, you know, probably best to cut it off at the pass and discuss something else for now.

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He did turn into a centaur, i'd call that humanoid. Why not other half humans like a merman or a sphinx?

I think Plicky means more "changing into other people". Which he can't do. With the centaur thing his lower half became a horse. The rest looked like him regularly, so he didn't change into another person or something.
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Plissken
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KingoftheBeasts
Apr 30 2010, 12:44 AM
I believe that Gods exist in the realm of magic. I thought that was why Wonder Woman's god given powers have affect on superman.

Nope, see, again, impossible to decode. Even in Wonder Woman, it depends on the era, as the gods have been described as mystical in the magical sense, but also as mystical in the natural sense; i.e. the life-force of the world made incarnate. This is actually closer to the original Greek belief, in that the gods weren't really mystical beings the way you're thinking of them, but mystical in the sense that they are the forces nature come to life with a voice.

And then we also have people like Grant Morrison's, whose mysticism is different in that magic for him is really just another layer of reality on top of our own. its something that is a part of reality, but its more like Gamma Rays or X-Rays--humans in general are just unaware of its existence; through study or innate ability, one may access that power. Again, that's different than the more traditional concept of magic as something supernatural (above and beyond the natural world).




Another good example I just recalled--the source of Captain Marvel's powers, the thing that powers the Rock of Eternity, is actually the Big Bang (being eternal, the Rock of Eternity exists outside time and is tethered to that moment through time wherever it appears).

More specifically, the moment of the Big Bang, as that is also when all the raw mystical force was released along with the universe, and in fact if I recall, the Wizard said that the mystical force of the universe is what initiated the Big Bang.

So once again, you have a blurred line between nature and science in the DCU.

There's no sharp line between nature and magic in the DCU. And it changes constantly from book to book and year to year. You're never going to pin it down.

Just gotta go along with it for the ride. I don't see anything inherently wrong with Gar's powers expanding more as he gets older; what matters is how well a writer uses that fact.
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KingoftheBeasts
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I think Plicky means more "changing into other people". Which he can't do. With the centaur thing his lower half became a horse. The rest looked like him regularly, so he didn't change into another person or something.


I think he meant turning into his own version of a kryptonian, not Superman himself.

You see, when BB turns into an animal, he doesn't copy one individual animals exact DNA, but their genome which adapts to his original DNA. Just like fingerprints, a tiger/Gar won't have the same stripes as any other tiger.

If he did become a kryptonian, it wouldn't be obvious until he used their powers as his phenotype would look the same regardless of how his genotype changed to Kryptonian. Now if he used the same abaility to become a Thanagarian, he would look like himslef with Thanagarian wings.

I hope this is never explored tho, cause if BB could become a "Super" it would surely happen right as he saves the day before dying.
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Plissken
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Apr 30 2010, 01:08 AM

I think he meant turning into his own version of a kryptonian, not Superman himself.

You see, when BB turns into an animal, he doesn't copy one individual animals exact DNA, but their genome which adapts to his original DNA.  Just like fingerprints, a tiger/Gar won't have the same stripes as any other tiger.

If he did become a kryptonian, it wouldn't be obvious until he used their powers as his phenotype would look the same regardless of how his genotype changed to Kryptonian.  Now if he used the same abaility to become a Thanagarian, he would look like himslef with Thanagarian wings.

I hope this is never explored tho, cause if BB could become a "Super" it would surely happen right as he saves the day before dying.


That's what i meant, he could theoretically become a Kryptonian or Martian or Tamaranian, but thus far humanoid species seem to be outside his range. Perhaps the DNA is too close to ours? Maybe its something he hasn't figured out how to achieve yet.

Anyway, it could also happen in an Elseworlds tale where Gar finally becomes one of the super bad-asses of the DCU. I could see it happening there without bad consequences. I don't think it would even happen in regular continuity unless it were under the pen of someone really invested in him and who had developed the story for a while before reaching such a climax.




Also, if you recall, Gar has a time limit on his transformations--the more complex the transformation, the less time he can spend in it before becoming too exhausted and fatigued. So its possible those things could be opened to him, but with the caveat that any attempt to take such forms would only last for moments before he'd be forced back into human form, or maybe even so exhausting that he'd lose consciousness if he stayed in form too long.

That could also be why the mystical transformations are fewer; he's capable of it, but he can't retain the shapes for too long otherwise he risks knocking himself out of the fight.




Just recall all the moment he's done it so far--they've been quick.

He become a Wilderbeast back in the Titans Annual, but only for moment; into the Wylde or something similar to the Wylde, but again only for a moment before being knocked out; a Phoneix to protect the Titans from an explosion, again for only a few moments; and a dragon to try and stop Raven from being kidnapped, again or only a few moments... as he apparently reverts back to human in the next panel while in mid-air... hrm.

I don't know if this was intentional on Felicia's part or not, but she either accidentally or intentionally kept Gar within the confines of his powers so far.




Because if we want to go back further--he turned into a Leviathan back in the Wolfman/Perez days when he was put into a rage and accidentally killed Madame Rouge.

And he also turned into some hideous, ten story-tall demonic creature back in the Terror of Trigon arc when he "murdered" his doppelganger.

It has been long established that extreme emotions could drive Gar to take forms beyond the animal kingdom.

And again just think about the three moments its happened under Felicia's pen--twice when Raven was being threatened directly (Wylde and Dragon), and once when the entire team was almost killed (Phoenix).

So I think she's actually within the bounds of his abilities, whether or not Henderson was aware of it when she was writing it.
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Plissken
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Apr 30 2010, 01:08 AM
Now if he used the same abaility to become a Thanagarian, he would look like himslef with Thanagarian wings.

Just as a FYI--Thanagarians don't have wings. The wings that Hawkman and Hawkgirl wear are fake. They're made with a metal that somehow or another defies the law of gravity to allow them to fly; the wings, as they are shaped, are what are used to help them navigate. They can remove them--that's what the straps on their costumes are if you ever notived.

It was only in the animated DCU that Thanagarians had wings as part of their biology, likely because they didn't want to have to waste time explaining the somewhat convoluted history of Hawkman and Hawkgirl.
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dl316bh
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Apr 30 2010, 01:21 PM
It was only in the animated DCU that Thanagarians had wings as part of their biology, likely because they didn't want to have to waste time explaining the somewhat convoluted history of Hawkman and Hawkgirl.

Even Geoff John's has had trouble sorting that crap out.

Perhaps Brightest Day's Hawk plotline will be the try that actually works.
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Plissken
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Indeed. Oh, and just to provide visual evidence, here, Kendra with her wings off:

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But if you've ever noticed those Conan the Barbarian straps on Hawkman that you see there in the panel, those straps are what hold his wings on.
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Xipz
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Plissken
Apr 30 2010, 01:21 PM
wings that Hawkman and Hawkgirl wear are fake. They're made with a metal that somehow or another defies the law of gravity to allow them to fly

Nth metal
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Lizard-Man
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Nth Metal, when you just wanna say "F off physics!"

Also useful for punching ghosts in the face.
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Apr 30 2010, 02:44 PM
Nth Metal, when you just wanna say "F off physics!"

Also useful for punching ghosts in the face.

DC has their Nth Metal, Marvel has it's Vibranium.

It's like a rule or something.
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KingoftheBeasts
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Remember how the original solicit for this issues implied that Wonder Girl wasn't going to like having Conner around all the time?

Well, it turns out that later this year Superboy is getting his own on going.

A new Superboy Series

Perhaps it was planned from the begining for him to be on this team till his new book opened up.

Of course, he could be in both I suppose.

But if he does leave the team then there are some sizable gaps in the roster. Bettel is leaving for JLI, Conner may be busy with his own book and if they don't keep Conner it would seem weird to keep Bart since they were both reintroduced at the same time.

Anyway, food for thought.
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