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Teen Titans #76; October 2009
Topic Started: Jul 18 2009, 04:38 PM (2,408 Views)
dl316bh
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Had they not chosen to turn him into a tortured and self-loathing gargoyle creature in Kingdom Come

That's just how he was described in the extra notes. In truth, we never really knew what Kingdom Come Gar was like. He made a few cameos and that was it; didn't even have a line of dialogue, as I recall. So the canonocity of that information is up for debate, as it could easily be ignored.

Which makes sense, of course; Kingdom Come was more about Superman and the issues of the next generation more than anything else. Ninety percent of the characters that showed up were nothing more than cameos anyways. We learned a lot more about them from the back notes than we did in the actual story.
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Plissken
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dl316bh
Oct 29 2009, 11:36 AM
That's just how he was described in the extra notes. In truth, we never really knew what Kingdom Come Gar was like. He made a few cameos and that was it; didn't even have a line of dialogue, as I recall. So the canonocity of that information is up for debate, as it could easily be ignored.

Which makes sense, of course; Kingdom Come was more about Superman and the issues of the next generation more than anything else. Ninety percent of the characters that showed up were nothing more than cameos anyways. We learned a lot more about them from the back notes than we did in the actual story.

No, of course. Kingdom Come was just meant to be a look into a possible future of the DCU where the Trinity of Superman/Wonder Woman/Batman is reasserted as being the core of the DCU and their necessity of leading the next generation. It was a Big Three love fest in a many ways, but still good. And Kingdom Come's universe exists as its own separate entity, so that's all I mean--the future is still open to Gar, and the possibility of him becoming a power player is still there. In fact, its sort of inherently implied thanks to Animal Man that Gar's powers were going to evolve over time anyway; but since Gar isn't crossing to the dark side, him becoming some powerful hero is there for anyone doing a future story to pull off.
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KingoftheBeasts
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he doesn't yet seem to be able to hold a partial transformation for a length of time--so you never see him just grow claws and fight like that, he seems to have to go all the way with it; he never seems to mix and match, so he doesn't become a flying shark or anything like that; finally, he can only become things that exist naturally as part of the world--you won't see him become some genetically engineered mutant or super being, because its not part of the natural order of the world.


But that's exactly what he's done here in turning into a creature like the wyld it's a bunch of partial transformations filling in eachother's gaps. And humans are just animals theirself, so if he can do this there's no reason he could just grow a tail but remian human the rest of the way. or turn his arms into wings or grow gills on his neck. It just makes him farless interesting.

Also, Gar was all mopey in Kingdom Come because he couldn't turn into real animals, all the shapes he loved and it made him very depressed.

And as for animal man. I already don't count anything with him as he used amoeba cellular devision and as I've stated before, they aren't animals.
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Plissken
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KingoftheBeasts
Oct 30 2009, 05:08 AM

But that's exactly what he's done here in turning into a creature like the wyld it's a bunch of partial transformations filling in eachother's gaps. And humans are just animals theirself, so if he can do this there's no reason he could just grow a tail but remian human the rest of the way. or turn his arms into wings or grow gills on his neck. It just makes him farless interesting.

Also, Gar was all mopey in Kingdom Come because he couldn't turn into real animals, all the shapes he loved and it made him very depressed.

And as for animal man. I already don't count anything with him as he used amoeba cellular devision and as I've stated before, they aren't animals.

While the Wyld itself appears as an amalgamation of various creatures, that doesn't mean that that is how Gar achieved the shift. The Wyld appears to be a being in it own right, an ancient mythological being long forgotten that feeds on psionic energies. Gar took its corporeal form, that doesn't mean he mixed and matched.

Like a chimera; a chimera exists in the DCU. If Gar took its form, that doesn't mean he did it by mixing together different animals. It exists in the natural order, it is its own being, so Gar can take the form because it exists independently of its amalgamate parts.

Amoebas aren't animals, but they are part of the natural and evolutionary order, and that's where Gar's abilities lie, at least today. They've been suggesting his abilities are expanding with age, and that means his abilities are beginning to open themselves up to other beings in the chain. Its becoming more evident that Gar's abilities allow access to anything living that has a corporeal form, a genetic code.




As for Gar in Kingdom Come--the insinuation was more than just that. Part of the reason he couldn't transform into animals was because of his depression in the first place. The idea behind his change in KC from what was said seemed to indicate he was becoming a psychologically-based shifter--he was taking the forms of various symbolic images, mainly from Jung, from human culture and individual psychology. He was becoming an avatar of his own psychological traumas. So yeah, not being able to become animals and even become human again added to that trauma, but it started well before then.




I wouldn't count out Animal Man--that was a purposeful look into what may be coming for Gar in the future concerning his abilities. While he may not earn the ability to split like Animal Man anytime soon, the fact that his abilities are spreading outward to include more and more beings is evident.
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KingoftheBeasts
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While the Wyld itself appears as an amalgamation of various creatures, that doesn't mean that that is how Gar achieved the shift. The Wyld appears to be a being in it own right, an ancient mythological being long forgotten that feeds on psionic energies. Gar took its corporeal form, that doesn't mean he mixed and matched.

Like a chimera; a chimera exists in the DCU. If Gar took its form, that doesn't mean he did it by mixing together different animals. It exists in the natural order, it is its own being, so Gar can take the form because it exists independently of its amalgamate parts.


I guess my grievence here is to whether the animals are natural, or magically brought into being. I doubt the wyld is a natural creature in the sense that we know them, and even if it's current form is the same kind it always had, I'm assuming that it achieved it (and it's whole existance) throught magical intervension. As for the DC chimera, I know nothhing about it, but if it's origins are also magical, than I would suggest it also not apply to BB's powers.

As for amoebas being part of the evolutionary progression, well, there are far too many holes, contradictions and cyclicle reasoning for me to find Darwin's theory of speciesation through evolution anywhere near vaild. However this is certainly not the venue to disscuss that.
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DeTroyes
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Plissken
Oct 30 2009, 11:41 AM
As for Gar in Kingdom Come--the insinuation was more than just that. Part of the reason he couldn't transform into animals was because of his depression in the first place. The idea behind his change in KC from what was said seemed to indicate he was becoming a psychologically-based shifter--he was taking the forms of various symbolic images, mainly from Jung, from human culture and individual psychology. He was becoming an avatar of his own psychological traumas. So yeah, not being able to become animals and even become human again added to that trauma, but it started well before then.

A big reason why I hate the concept of Menagerie and want Gar to stay as far away from it as he possibly can.
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dl316bh
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Nov 1 2009, 10:36 PM
A big reason why I hate the concept of Menagerie and want Gar to stay as far away from it as he possibly can.

Thankfully DC seems to have gotten off it's Kingdom Come kick. The time to worry has pretty much passed, I think; if it was going to happen, it would have occurred years ago. If anything, we're probably going to see more elements of Animal Man crop up than anything else.
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Plissken
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DeTroyes
Nov 1 2009, 10:36 PM
A big reason why I hate the concept of Menagerie and want Gar to stay as far away from it as he possibly can.

Agreed. For now we probably don't have to worry since Kingdom Come exists as its own universe now. I think the best way to prevent it in the current one, at least for now, would be to introduce a separate character under that name with a similar concept.

The laziest and simplest way to do that--Gar clone. The Brain was already doing that, as we know, so one of them ends up surviving carrying all of Gar's traumas, yada yada yada, becomes the demonic psychologically scarred Menagerie, problem solved for now. I've come up with more creative ideas, but that just does it off the bat.

No worries though--I think if people really wanted to use Menagerie concept, Johns would have done it in the Titans of Tomorrow story arc. Instead he gave us the Animal Man iteration, which is much less of a problem, particularly since he can come back from being Animal Man much more easily than he could Menagerie.
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TherealRNO
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Writer may have just read shape-shifter and thought it was no holds barge on that respect.
Agreed. For some, a shapeshifter can mean anything, practically. Sort of like Morph from X-Men & speaking of...
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he can only become things that exist naturally as part of the world--you won't see him become some genetically engineered mutant or super being, because its not part of the natural order of the world
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Its becoming more evident that Gar's abilities allow access to anything living that has a corporeal form, a genetic code.
The thing is, genetically engineered mutants & super beings also have genetic codes, as per the world of comics in general. The X-Men (whom the Titans of Gar's generation crossed-over with) show this readily, for though many were altered humans in some way, they are part of the world of comics, even in their mutant forms.

For all we know, where Beast Boy's future self pointed out Beast Boy's refusal to utilize a hidden strength, said strength could lie in his powers, it could lie in his ability as leader (and his constant struggle for approval), or it could possibly lie in feelings not yet reciprocated. With that, Gar could hit all three birds with one stone by pulling an Avatar Aang-esque move where writers show a panel of an ensuing battle where Gar protects Rae from this...thing & in the process, a new ability regarding his powers could be unlocked, & upon soundly putting this beast back from whence it came, Gar could finally get the respect he's deserved for quite a long time, complete with the cake icing of Rae rekindling her feelings.
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....Ya know that makes senses. Isn't Gar meant to be 'the key'? xD
This is all ironic 'cause, in the first film & recent videogame, Gozer (or a minon of his) used the girl Peter was flirting with as a gateway & Peter was asked if he was the keymaster prior to the spicy Peter/Diana scene in the first film just before Diana morphed into a demonic entity, Gar is the key for the Titans whilst Rae's a portal, and both GB & TT (sometimes) take place in New York.

At this rate, we may see Gar temporarily transforming into Slimer (or something similar to avoid copyrights) pretty soon. :D All that would be left is for Gar to--unlike Peter--get the girl, for to twist Egon Spangler's phrase, "Back off, I'm a shipper." :mine:

Finally, this all begs the question: When there's trouble...Who You Gonna Call?
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dl316bh
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Agreed. For some, a shapeshifter can mean anything, practically. Sort of like Morph from X-Men & speaking of...

A lot of the shapeshifters from Marvel seem able to turn into pretty much anything, actually. Though I think Morph is more of a "copy mutant powers" kind of thing; I'm not a hundred percent sure, as I'm not as involved in Marvel as I am DC. So I know less in that area.

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The X-Men (whom the Titans of Gar's generation crossed-over with) show this readily, for though many were altered humans in some way, they are part of the world of comics, even in their mutant forms.

I don't believe that crossover is in continuity; it might be in a DC/Marvel alternate universe though and there's more than enough room in the multiverse to believe one exists.

That said, this has something of a point. But it's gone even further in the last decade. The X-Men aren't so much just the product of a rogue "X Gene" so much as we've learned they're supposed to be the evolution of humanity. Still plays into similar aspects, but a new wrinkle into it.

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Gar is the key for the Titans whilst Rae's a portal, and both GB & TT (sometimes) take place in New York.

I've... never really thought of that.

It's a hell of a coincidence.
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GhettoMac
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dl316bh
Dec 7 2009, 03:32 PM
A lot of the shapeshifters from Marvel seem able to turn into pretty much anything, actually. Though I think Morph is more of a "copy mutant powers" kind of thing; I'm not a hundred percent sure, as I'm not as involved in Marvel as I am DC. So I know less in that area.

I'm a little light on the Marvel-verse myself, but from what I can see, their rules on shapeshifting are similar to DC's SS's, but a little bit more descriptive.

For example, Morph's what most poeple would call an omni-morph, in which he's able turn into basically anything, regardless of size, shape, color, mass, or density, kinda like Impossible Man.

Then there's the basic SS's like Mystique or the Skrulls that just turn into other people or organic things.

Same rules can be said for DC's SS's, only with a few more exceptions. As for Gar, I'm pretty sure we're on a path where it ends with Gar holdin back most of his power cause either he doesn't want it or doesn't need it.

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I've... never really thought of that.

It's a hell of a coincidence.

Better be, cause with all this Ghostbuster talk, it kinda makes me wonder about writers abilities.
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