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| Teen Titans #76; October 2009 | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jul 18 2009, 04:38 PM (2,411 Views) | |
| that25lyne | Oct 27 2009, 12:47 AM Post #31 |
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Lieutenant Commander
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I hope their veiw changes also. In a way, it'll shift my veiw of him as well. I have the show to thank for the slowness of seeing that Gar has what it takes to be a leader. Thanks, TTAS. Thank you so much. -Shakes a fish at it- LAWLS. CraZy, your pic expresses the inner thoughts of BBRae's worldwide at that panel. Well, for this particular BBrae anyway. X3 O_o What is with me and the top of pages? |
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| Plissken | Oct 27 2009, 01:42 AM Post #32 |
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Knight Champion
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I don't think the show is to blame for that. Actually, it was Gar's own savior, Geoff Johns, who was responsible for it. Following the OYL, Geoff had lost one of his favorite characters from the team--Superboy. His shake-up post-OYL was an attempt to revive the title for him as much as for readers. His decision to move Gar to the Doom Patrol was in the right place--he wanted Gar to shine there, to take up the reigns of leadership. Sadly it was DOOMED from the start, and it was a wrong decision, one I get the impression that he admits. The reason Gar had to fail for that to happen was twofold--one in that Gar needed a good reason to have to leave the Titans, and blaming himself for failure was one of the only reasons why he would leave, and, second, the Doom Patrol as Johns had set them up were all characterized by a fatal flaw that the Chief could exploit--in Gar's case, his need to have to hold up everyone else, be responsible for them, and inevitably come to blame himself even when the situation was out of his hands. So it was a bad decision from Geoff, but not one that was meant to harm the character, and actually was probably meant to put him into the spotlight again. I think it may have also been connected to the Doom Patrol film and series that was being discussed at the time--Geoff may have stuck Beastboy on the team to remind people that he was an original member, as a film deal may have left him out because he has become more associated with the Titans. So this may have also been Geoff's attempt to get Gar onto the silver screen. Also realize that we never really actually learned what Gar's failure was--most assume it was the heavy Titan losses during World War III (with Black Adam), or the inability of the Titans to maintain a stable roster, or both. But we never actually got a clear picture of what the failure(s) was(were). In fact, there might not have been a failure on his part. If the problem were the heavy losses or the chaotic roster, much of that was out of his control (and later we learned that Slade had a hand in it as well). So even initially, I don't think Geoff had meant that Gar had literally failed, but had only felt responsible for others' failures and taken them as his own. My impression from Johns was more that the Titans had failed him, but that he blamed that on himself and accused himself of bad leadership, so he decided to leave the team in others' hands. Of course, that itself failed because the Titans were unable to regroup themselves for quite a time after wards. Still, I'm happy to see we've come full circle. This was where Geoff was leading the Teen Titans up to prior to the OYL--a team of next generation heroes under the tutelage of Beastboy and Raven. Oh how sweet it is. I hope the best for this new writer. Can't wait for noon on Wednesday... |
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| KingoftheBeasts | Oct 27 2009, 06:11 AM Post #33 |
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Lieutenant Commander
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Gar's leadership wasn't a true failure. The team itself failed. With all the turmoil that was going on in the DCU most of the Titans staple members were busy with their own big events. This left Beast Boy with a few second string Titans like Hawk and Dove, and a bunch of completely green superheros like Zatarra and Bombshell. And although a team of newbies can pull together, it can only happen if they are eased into the team dynamic slowly. This team however didn't have the chance as they immediately had to face the aftermath of IC and WW III. The members quit right away because it was too much for any of these new or inexperienced kids to handel right off the bat. Add to all this the x-factor that it all happened under a first time leader and it's easy to assume that it was the result of poor leadership. However, that team would have fallen apart even if Nightwing had been leading. And Robin was abel to make his team work only because by the time he took over things in the DCU were calming down. Even he mentioned at the start of his run that it wasn't working well as leader. The main problem with Beast Boy is that he holds himself to a higher standard than he would expect of anyone else. When someone else fails at something, he's the first to reassure them that it is ok to come short at times. But were he to fail at the same thing, it renforces his own feelings of inadequecy and worthlessness. When he heard whispers from others saying that the falling out was his fault, his fragile ego was all too ready to accept it. I'd say the only (possible) failing he did was when he refused to stop trailing Black Adam. This could be seen as a reckless disregard for his team mates as Adam was to great a match for any of them. However, I don't really think it was a failing because super hero teams have to pursue the villians (no matter how over-whelming) because otherwise, innocent bystandards could be hurt. However, again BB can't deny his own blame if he feels there is even a sliver of reson in the accusations. Add to all this that through it all, Raven was his rock of confidence. She showed him that she believed in him when even he couldn't. When she left to find out who the traitor was, he was all too ready to believe that his failiure finally convinced her that he was worthless. We never saw much of him immediately after the "break-up" but I'm sure it crushed whatever ego he had left for the one person he felt would always believe in him to (seemingly) give up. |
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| dl316bh | Oct 27 2009, 11:54 AM Post #34 |
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I don't get why Geoff moved him to the Doom Patrol even with the reasons given. I knew it was a terrible idea right from the start. He was basically demoted as far as DC cred goes; the Doom Patrol is practically G list these days to the Teen Titans B list status. He became a member of a third rate team again. Didn't smack of an intelligent move, just desperation. Truth be told, most of OYL smacked of desperation. Aside from Eddie and Ravager, the whole thing felt like a massive flop. Suddenly Jericho's back in a major "don't ask" ending to his plot, the identity of the "traitor" was obvious right from the start, Raven did almost nothing, Tim and Cassie were acting downright freaky. Oh, and everyone had basically become an @$$hole. On top of that, the interesting plots he did set up weren't fleshed out enough before he left to survive much past him. I hope Geoff returns to the Titans someday, because for all he did before OYL, everything simply blew up afterwards.
The problem is that his shake-up at OYL basically threw out what he was working with before; quite a few complaints I remember seeing is that it wasn't just a small or medium shift, but a siesmic toss of the status that held next to nothing readers were enjoying before. He didn't just change some of it, he changed well over half the team and shuffled off most of the rest. So in the end, the only plot he ever truly wrapped from his Teen Titans run was Superboy. Everything else was tossed out OYL and his fresh start approach didn't work well either. It's like completely switching gears halfway through a story and wrapping up nothing; it's a bad idea and it isn't any wonder it all went horribly wrong with readers. |
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| Plissken | Oct 27 2009, 12:40 PM Post #35 |
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Knight Champion
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Hey, never said it worked, but I think his intentions were good, just the execution superbly flawed. We all know the Doom Patrol was a doomed from start concept, but I think that Johns and others thought they could succeed with it. They were intent on reclaiming the Morrison-era Doom Patrol, and after the crash and Byrne of the reboot, I think they thought they could use the growing popularity of Morrison's DP to revive the title. Did it work? No. But I think he wanted it to. The worst part of Johns era was always the tie-ins and lack of focus from Johns. I think that's why in part he shed so much of the YJ crew and brought in Ravager and Kid Devil, so he'd have some blank slates to work with. Still, looks like we're doing a 180 on the whole thing, so hopefully its smooth sailing from January onward. So, I'm assuming Beast Boy is back in Titans for the November and December issues... maybe. He could shoot over to Teen Titans if those issues are meant to follow after TT:BN to check on the Teen Titans, but so far I think he'll be back on Titans for the coming BN tie-ins. Raven I think might stay with TT, though. So she and Gar may not be seen together again until January. Guess we'll see what happens, but after this issue we may expect a lull until the new year. |
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| dl316bh | Oct 27 2009, 12:51 PM Post #36 |
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You're talking like Titans and Teen Titans current events are taking place at the same time. We already know Titans events are happening before Teen Titans. Titans is only really going to catch up in January, when Gar and Raven's departure is going to be reflected and the team will fracture the rest of the way. |
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| Plissken | Oct 27 2009, 01:19 PM Post #37 |
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Knight Champion
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Was that clearly stated, because there's a bunch of people as confused as me over the chronology of these current events right now. But, hey, as long as it gets me my BB/Rae. So do we know yet where the JSA issues are? Because BN Terra is appearing over there, too, and I've been wondering then if Gar will get the best of Terra or if it'll be her brother. I guess at this point I'd have to go with Geoforce being the one taking down Terra--not completely, since the event itself will be ended in its own series--but he might be the one that pummels her corpse into near oblivion. |
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| Plissken | Oct 28 2009, 01:26 PM Post #38 |
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Knight Champion
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Ooo, well, uh, I don't know how this issue will be taken by fans. For us it confirms Gar's feelings for Raven, but Gar himself doesn't come off well in this... at least from the perspective of the Teen Titans, though he does make a point that he went back for Raven because he knew they were trying to draw them away from her (and she is obviously the real target, so he has a point). So actually, it could swing the other way, except their argument about it only begins when the issue ends. More in a moment. The Titans themselves are still being depicted as bickering among each other. The worst comes at the end when Garfield is about to start an argument with Cassie (it literally ends right there). So... First off, Raven is only in three or so panels, and doesn't do much except strike The Wylde with her Soul Self, weakening it and forcing it to run. There's no interaction between her and Garfield. Jaime really doesn't seem to like Gar. And the issue ends with Cassie and Gar about to go at it, and... continued in issue #79, so I don't think the next to issues will deliver much for us. Of them all, Static was the most willing to stand up for Gar, but he reaches a point where he says he's "running out of excuses" for why he's not taking lead with them (at this point he was cut off from radio contact as he took on the Wyld himself). So, sadly, Gar doesn't earn their respect and it ends with them basically saying he's not their leader and needs to go. Ouch. I think it may be time for us to start being a little cautious again. The line about Gar being a love sick puppy is repeated, and the fact that he got cut off from the team in order to go save Raven is the main cause of the tension in this issue. I'm hoping they're not pushing Gar towards a point/situation where he has to prove his leadership by giving up Raven, but the possibility is beginning to become apparent. So sadly this issue doesn't give us Raven's perspective on this, and it sort of depicts Gar's love for Raven as an obstacle. So... time to be cautious again. Otherwise, I guess we're waiting until January to get more. There's also a line in BN:T from Gar: GAR: "She's out there. Somewhere... VIC: "Who? That creature? Don't worry. We'll get her. GAR: "No. Not that. The girl for me. She's out there. And I'll find her. Eventually." That conversation can swing either way; either its confirming a coming relationship with Raven, or otherwise its insinuating Gar is moving on and finding someone else. My optimism says it should Raven, given all we've been through and how they keep insinuating it. But I think caution is advised. Be ready for a roller coaster. Also, I'm there's a Zule that seems to be good (the one that carried Raven to the tower), and it saves the Titans (its the only one that has blue eyes). I'm wondering what that might be about and what might be going on. With all this talk about body switching... well, I don't want to start delving into that realm quite yet, I may upset people with that theory. However, another possibility--the return of the tainted souls of Azarath? The Wyld is described as an age old being that lives and feeds entirely off Psionic energies. Perhaps we're leading up to the reintroduction of Azar as actually being a villain? Or perhaps its simply commanding the tained souls. So possibly the good Zule is Arella? Just a theory with nothing to go on, but I think this Good Zule will play a part in the future. |
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| dl316bh | Oct 28 2009, 04:03 PM Post #39 |
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Oh, give me a break Pliskin. No one is going to write something like that. Any sane man would tell a team to go piss on a power pole before they'd give up the person they love to lead. These kind of "OMG a bump in the road" downbeat theories have become real tiring for me. |
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| Plissken | Oct 28 2009, 04:46 PM Post #40 |
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Knight Champion
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I'm still advising caution. Guess what? Comics have done stupider things. TV dramas have done stupider things as well, if we refer to Felicia's experience. Hell, Dick and Kory and Dick and Babs were split apart for more inane reasons. Its not exactly a new idea that a character chooses responsibilities over his love--Spider-man anyone? I mean, there you go. Sacrificed his wife to undo all his mistakes, and depending on where you stand with it, the reasons were justified or not. You're saying similar situations won't arise here? And it doesn't seem like a stretch to me or even to DeTroyes from what I can tell--Gar here has been shown as wanting to prove his worth to everyone, Vic has said he needs to move on and stop playing a role he seems stuck in, the Titans have told him he's more concerned about Raven than leading a team, and both The Wyld and Terra have called him a love sick puppy. All of this refers to Gar as being more concerned about personal relationships over taking up the reigns of leadersip. Him deciding that he needs to focus on being a leader, or forcing him into a situation where he has to choose Raven over the team, can be seen as being set up by all of this rather easily. Its not out there given what's been said and shown. Thus far, Gar's love has been depicted as an obstacle. That doesn't mean that the relationship will officially end, but brace for even more waiting if they decide to continue to drag this "will we/won't we" aspect out any longer. And frankly that's been the status quo for them, so just because we want to see things move forward doesn't mean DC feels the same way; they might continue to bait us for years because they may have come to realize the anticipation of it is what's helping to sell it to some people. So until we get a clearer picture, I think we need to approach it cautiously. Yes, BB/Rae has become more mainstream and popular over time. People WANT to see it, there are people at DC who WANT to see it, but nothing is ever guaranteed in comics, as One More Day certainly demonstrated a company's willingness to erase a whole continuity just to reboot a character to the beginning. Me, personally, I'm optimistic. Sorry if you find my words of caution to be pessimistic, but I'm not going to withhold my theories or attempts to decipher foreshadowing just because you find them too downbeat for your tastes, these are concerns that exist for all of us. And I've noted that all this may just be tied to Blackest Night--that Gar and Raven are being put until stasis into the new series picks up again, and we can move forward from there. But there are things being said and occurring that may come up again in the future. So take what you will from them, but they remain possibilities for the future until we can learn more. I think others would agree with given what we've seen this past issue. |
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| SparkyX | Oct 28 2009, 04:51 PM Post #41 |
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Co-Owner
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I'm just gonna wait for a few scans before I become cautious all the sudden. 'Cause as for now, Pliskeen's warning has made me a bit nervous about the whole thing. What if it IS going to end up that way? No... no, I'm just gonna be optimist about the whole thing. Gar loves Raven right? That's got to count for something!
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| GhettoMac | Oct 28 2009, 04:53 PM Post #42 |
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Marshal
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Besides, it doesn't really make any sense to give up on someone you love, when that said someone is still on the team. If anything, that would lead to Gar leaving the TT, AGAIN, and I think DC thinks that's a line they don't wanna cross again. But I do think your right in where this seems to lead to Gar having to prove his leadership, how, we don't know. And difficult to say the least , because he's pretty much proven his wroth as a leader time and time again.
Ah damn it, and just when I thought she was cool again.
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| Plissken | Oct 28 2009, 04:55 PM Post #43 |
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Knight Champion
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DT posted scans at RBSU. Here you go: Scans for TT #76 Spoiler: click to toggle
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| dl316bh | Oct 28 2009, 04:56 PM Post #44 |
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Different stories. Spider-Man did that to save a life. Dick and his two gal pals often split because of personal problems. If anything, something was at stake or there were reasons. Nothing is at stake here but leadership and there's no way Gar could come off well if he sacrificed something like that just to lead a team that doesn't want him to begin with. On top of that, it's one of the most downbeat theories running. It's been almost three years. Plenty of oppourtunities to put things on stasis or end them but good. They didn't. Hell, they're already in stasis; they're not even together! We've had completely off theories a lot before; this just seems like tipping way over the line into "would they really try and pull something so stupid" territory. Sometimes it is what it is. First theory we talked about was that Gar was going to have to earn the trust of the team or prove himself to them. No sane person - or competantly written character - would think sacrificing a girlfriend or significant other would sway someone's opinion in a positive direction for their leadership. If anything, that's a good way to get people to be even more disgusted with you; it would bring to light the question of just how much you actually value someone or a relationship. |
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| Changeling | Oct 28 2009, 05:19 PM Post #45 |
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Gosh, it's like Avatar all over again. *groans* Ultimate Avatar State power, or the girl you love? The leadership position of the Teen Titans, or the girl you love? I'm torn. I can't help but think this will set up a wait before anything else happens (and, yeah some fear on my part that this is a push to "move on", but I also can't help but feel that no guy, unless there was some HUGE reason like saving lives or something like that, would choose leadership and/or ultimate power over the person he loves the most in the world. But maybe I'm a romantic sap. Still, I do like that even though Gar got pummeled just there, he put his all out there to protect Raven. |
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7:35 PM Jul 10