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Titans #18; October 2009
Topic Started: Jul 18 2009, 04:35 PM (6,028 Views)
craZy
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I'm cutting Bryan Miller some serious slack. He's new. He's been adjusting to comics slowly; though word is his Batgirl series seems to be improving. Even a pro like Gail Simone screwed up the Teen Titans before (a source of embarrassment for her). But god damn.


I guess every writer has their day. Apparently Miller was having a real bad one o.o

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Thank the animated series. This s*** didn't happen before it. Stuff like this is sometimes why I flip between tolerant of the series and hateful.

I truly hope it's just a one time thing. Rachel Norris really does make me want to cry.

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One last thing Zai. Let's try to only share important pages from here on. Like the Shoryuken and last few pages would have been important. Respectful and all that; posting a lot tends to get a little too close to posting the majority of an issue.

Lol, yeah I guess I did go a bit crazy (no pun intended...sorta). I'll be more careful next time.
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SparkyX
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WORST case... my bad. Either way, I still don't think they're just gonna end up being best friends, and the panel from #75 kinda backs it up.

EDIT: Oooh, can we see a scan or two? Pretty please? ^.^
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Changeling
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Egad. Where's my Raven?

Seriously, I love the animated series. But I love the comics too. Why can't these writers separate the two?

We could always go with the idea that Raven is just at that time of month. Again. XD


To walk with Him is to walk in light. The Lord is my light and my salvation--who shall I fear? ~Psalm 27:1

GOD'S NOT DEAD
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dl316bh
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Oooh, can we see a scan or two? Pretty please? ^.^

Of what? Titans #18? See last page.

Or Batgirl? Because if you're interested in seeing a few pages of that - which is by the same writer - I could grab the preview for previous issues. Batgirl is now Stephanie Brown, by the way.

craZy
 
I truly hope it's just a one time thing. Rachel Norris really does make me want to cry.

Same. We haven't seen it before though. With luck, we won't ever see it again. Ass kicking females is great stuff, but that is not Raven's bag.

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Seriously, I love the animated series. But I love the comics too. Why can't these writers separate the two?

I think it comes down to the folks writing the Titans book lately simply not doing their research. With few exceptions, most of them have seemed to draw on the animated series first and foremost when looking to write the issues. They're basically doing fill-in work so they probably figured they wouldn't need to do as much in the way of research. It's much simpler to draw from a show than to research back issues of comics. One usually assumes the adaption would be faithful anyways.

Which is where we run into problems with the Teen Titans animated series, because it was far from faithful.
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Changeling
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That's true, but it's still lazy.

But who am I kidding. People ARE lazy.
To walk with Him is to walk in light. The Lord is my light and my salvation--who shall I fear? ~Psalm 27:1

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SparkyX
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WTF? How did I miss the scans? They're freaking hilarious (the random captions that is... you silly craZy)!

Where the hell did Raven learn how to fight like that? And the uppercut? Damien's right. She must have watched too many Chuck Norris.

Oh, as for the scans craZy, just upload the last two to the main site. I don't want our site to be shut down by DC. :(
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dl316bh
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Oct 15 2009, 12:58 PM
Oh, as for the scans craZy, just upload the last two to the main site. I don't want our site to be shut down by DC. :(

They only care if you're posting full issues or close to it. This is part of why Scans Daily was originally shut down. They toed the line a lot, but towards the end of the original communities life they became too brazen and earned the scorn of Peter David. If you're posting more than four or five pages of a brand spanking new issue of any comic you're walking a very fine line.

We're not the only site to do stuff like we do, so we're fine as long as we keep it low. For the most part, I think we're fine if we just keep scan posting to the map. Random scenes or panels is pretty much nothing, really.

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Where the hell did Raven learn how to fight like that? And the uppercut? Damien's right. She must have watched too many Chuck Norris.

That or she's been a little too engrossed in Street Fighter lately. That Shoryuken uppercut? Ryu would have been jealous.
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Plissken
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Whoa, okay, I don't think we should blame the animated series on this one. I don't think it had anything to do with it, at least directly.

Even in the animated series, Raven doesn't go around judo kicking Slade Bots in half while spouting one-liners. If this issue involved Raven throwing black balls of energy or using telekinesis to throw crap at Envy whilst chanting nonsensical magical words, then I'd have blamed the animated series as encroaching in on this.

Here... I don't know what the issue is exactly.

Half of it, I would say, is Winnick. Thanks to Winnick, Raven doesn't really have a base, something to work off of. That's been the problem in all of this--we don't know who Raven is anymore after OYL. We've yet to really get into her head and understand how she operates anymore. She's been all over the map; During the OYL and right up until Titans launched, she remains the Wolfman/Johns style Raven who is sort of balanced between being adventurous and reserved. There were a few panels where she seemed snarky, but it was never really over the top, and it always seemed to get balanced off somewhere else. In fact, right before Titans #1, we saw Raven acting more reserved and introverted.

Even in the Raven miniseries, which is now largely forgotten, Raven is more like a quiet girl than an abrasive bitch; mostly she's like a fish out of water, like she just stepped off the boat onto Earth for the first time, which was part of what made that series strange.

It was come Winnick and Titans that suddenly she was catapulted right over the edge and was pretty much established as the team's resident bitch. So I do imagine its hard for a new writer, new to the character and the series and to comics in general, to just pick her up and understand who she is.




Now I think on top of that two other things are at work.

One, is the assumption that all superheroes have to be kicking ass and taking names. I think the writer just didn't understand or realize how Raven is meant to approach a fight. She is an empath, and so karate chopping someone in the throat should kinda bother her since she can feel people's pain. That's part of her schtick, honestly, what makes her unique.

Being that this writer is on Batgirl, I think I can understand why this may have happened--Raven is acting like part of the Bat-crew here. She's like Batgirl. At least in the way she battles the baddies. I can see no other good explanation as to why she suddenly became Rachel F*ckin' Norris.

So I guess the writer just assumed that Raven would know some sort of martial arts since she doesn't have super strength or super speed or some other power that's a little easier to imagine being used in a fight.

That's sort of the problem for a writer when it comes to Raven--how to use her in a battle. I think that's why she's generally in the background or playing the medic or the transport for the team. It does take some creativity to see how she should utilize her powers in an offensive way. In general, I would have told him that she should be more stealthy and indirect, more of a Spy than a Heavy Weapons Guy. Less Chuck Norris, more Solid Snake. Taking them out quietly and focusing on getting the hostage out of there rather than guns blazing.




The last part of the problem I believe is editorial. This came up at RBSU, but where the hell are the editors in all of this? They're supposed to do more than just correct grammar and spelling. They're supposed to be providing guidance in other areas like continuity and characterization.

I place a good chunk of the blame on their shoulders too. This writer was a newcomer in almost every way possible. Editorial should have read this script and stepped in to say "Okay, you need to tone this down a little. Raven is more subtle than this." As editors, they should have some knowledge of how each of the characters work. That's their job. They should know enough about Raven to understand how she would operate in different situations, or at least force the writer to consider how his portrayal makes sense with her character.

So I think they need some responsibility for this, too.




Its upsetting, too--Gar has actually received some very good treatment recently. Its the best he's had it for a long time now. I was really hoping that this issue would have given Raven the same sort of leg up treatment that Gar has been getting.

More than anything, I think this issue was just a wasted opportunity. I was expecting to get into Raven's mind and understand her motivations in life; not watch her zoom around doing flying kicks .
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Oct 15 2009, 01:16 PM
Whoa, okay, I don't think we should blame the animated series on this one. I don't think it had anything to do with it, at least directly.

Even in the animated series, Raven doesn't go around judo kicking Slade Bots in half while spouting one-liners. If this issue involved Raven throwing black balls of energy or using telekinesis to throw crap at Envy whilst chanting nonsensical magical words, then I'd have blamed the animated series as encroaching in on this.

Maybe, but before the series, this kind of thing didn't happen. If Raven showed up, she wasn't ****ing judo-kicking people or even fighting as she was here. That "fighter" deal was started largely by the series; subsequently, as you yourself have noted, the pacifist part of her has thusly been slowly forgotten.

So yeah, I'll blame it, because even if it's just indirectly, it opened the door for crap like this.

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not watch her zoom around doing flying kicks .

I would have preferred she did a Bicycle kick. That would have put the issue so far over the top that it would have looped back around to become awesome.
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SparkyX
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I think the Gar thread on comicbloc somehow played a part in getting Gar back on track. I guess it's time to do the same with Raven. But the problem is, she's not on hiatus.

You're right about the animated series not entirely at fault. She never threw punches and flying kicks in the TV series, and she never engulfed objects with black energy and use them as weapons in the comics recently. The writers (the new ones) are probably confused with Raven fighting style since Johns and Winnick were a bit grey on that department. But nonetheless, can't they just do their own research (read her bio on TitansTower for example) instead of hoping for the fans might like it?
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dl316bh
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Oct 15 2009, 01:28 PM
You're right about the animated series not entirely at fault. She never threw punches and flying kicks in the TV series, and she never engulfed objects with black energy and use them as weapons in the comics recently.

That's not my point. I'm not saying they've entirely switched over or brought everything over. But it's way too convenient for me that her appearances are largely in character right up through Geoff's series, but then the show comes, goth bitchy Raven becomes popular and suddenly there are problems.

Maybe you guys ain't seeing it, but I sure as hell don't think it's coincidence.
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Plissken
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Maybe, maybe not. I dunno. That could be possible, but the animated series was at its height during all of Geoff's run, and the only thing that ever got transitioned over from him was her new-found ability to fly.

By the time Winnick comes into the picture--and this is at a point where the animated series had really died off--I don't know what may have been going through his head. I don't know if this animated series was influencing him yet.

Remember of course that as the first arc opens, the Titans are in fact supposed to be acting completely out of character; Gar and Raven under the sway of Rage. I don't think he got this from the animated series, but rather its one of his flaws--he's bad with subtlety. He lays it on hard. And that's where I think Raven really suffered under him. He just can't handle a character like her. And so when the arc finally ended, he didn't seem to know how to bring her back down again. She's sorted just stayed at the precipice of being in an absolute rage.

In the first place, Winnick does carry something of a reputation when it comes to female characters, anyway. He seems to only be able to write three or four types of characterizations for women--the slut, the victim, the angry bitch, and the control freak. So even after the storyline ended, I don't know if the AS is to blame as much as Winnick's shoddy writing for the series.

And, again, he did better in #5-6; granted, with Didio himself breathing down his neck, but after editorial let go again, Raven was back to being the bitch.

So, I dunno, while I understand what you mean about the animated series opening the door, I think the AS had more effect on Raven's guest appearances in the past than on this series.

Those are the places where I really see the AS bleed into things. Like when Gail Simone had that guest issue, and Raven was chanting "Azarath Metrion Zenthos". I don't think that's what Winnick was going by during his time on the issue, though. Maybe if we got an interview about this series with him, but I imagine he may never wish to speak of this again.

Even if the AS hadn't existed... I dunno. Winnick may still have gone the way he did. I think that's the direction he decided for Raven and went with it. And that's going to be more of a problem in future portrayals than the animated series is going to be.
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Oct 15 2009, 02:02 PM
Maybe, maybe not. I dunno. That could be possible, but the animated series was at its height during all of Geoff's run, and the only thing that ever got transitioned over from him was her new-found ability to fly.

Look back at OYL bro. Remember us freaking out a bit on RBSU because Raven was being bitchier? The comments to Miss Martian about "too bright"? There were points in Titans East where she wasn't coming off too well as I recall, though I admittedly have not read that story in a while and cannot bring up any specific examples. Then there were the costumes (especially Beast Boy's, which feels like it took us forever to get rid of).

Even Geoff was starting to shift it in. So I don't think it was just Winick. By now, it's been rejected at every damn turn by fans. But is it too late?

I'm thinking no, but for now we're having to put up with this s***.

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Even if the AS hadn't existed... I dunno. Winnick may still have gone the way he did. I think that's the direction he decided for Raven and went with it. And that's going to be more of a problem in future portrayals than the animated series is going to be.

Perhaps, perhaps not. I felt like things were too much like you might expect from the AS except grown up a bit and pissier. I mean, look at his portrayal of Gar as well. Maybe it's just me, but I think all of this is too much of a coincidence. After the show, DC was obviously looking to push a more AS friendly Raven, despite fans balking at every turn.

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He seems to only be able to write three or four types of characterizations for women--the slut, the victim, the angry bitch, and the control freak.

Really? I mean, I don't think he's THAT narrow. I haven't read all of his run on Green Arrow, but what I saw of his Black Canary didn't come off as any of those at all. Also, what little I've read of his Green Lantern had a pretty likable Jade. Perhaps you're drawing a bit too much from what you've personally read of his than his work as a whole.

Keep in mind, I'm not out to defend Winick here, I just don't think he falls as squarely into a box as people make him out to be. It seems to be a matter of whether he has a strong editor and whether he really gives a s***.

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And, again, he did better in #5-6; granted, with Didio himself breathing down his neck, but after editorial let go again, Raven was back to being the bitch.

Yeah, but we were never even sure if he cared anymore at that point. We'd already heard he wasn't pleased with the editorial interference - which nixed a few things he wanted to do - and we were speculating as early as when #6 came out that his days on the title may have been numbered. That could have been part of why Lockdown felt so bleh; we'd speculating he wasn't truly trying at that point. He didn't even stick around to finish the Jericho plot he had started.

This is not to say that if he were still excited about doing the title that things may have been different, I'm just putting it out there.

I think what stings the most for me about his run is that he had the potential. Issues #5 and #6 proved he had it in him to write them as they should have been. I think the failure of his run would have stung less if I felt like he had completely missed in regards to everything. It's easier to take it if you feel they were simply incapable of doing the job right in general.
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that25lyne
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Allow me to throw a wrench into the middle of your conversation.

Wally's gotz kidz?! :urgh:
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Plissken
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that25lyne
Oct 15 2009, 11:55 PM
Allow me to throw a wrench into the middle of your conversation.

Wally's gotz kidz?! :urgh:

Yeah. Since... when was it... 2005? It was during Geoff's run I believe. Originally they were miscarried because Iris was attack, but Wally ended up preventing it during some sort of twisted time travel adventure, so the children officially came into the show, and were aged to their tweens after the events of Infinite Crisis.

Currently they lack their father's super speed, but their abilities have manifested differently. Iris can vibrate the atoms of her body and anything touches so that they can pass through solid objects (one of Wally's abilities)--pretty much like Shadowcat from the X-Men. Jai can cause the muscles of his body to rapidly grow, hence the super strength he has. They also have some sort of ability to tap into the speed force and sort of "summon" their father to them. I think its implied that one day they'll each develop their father's super speed abilities.

But yeah, they've been around for a bit, but until Infinite Crisis they were just newborns.

Here's a better look at them out of uniform and a West Family shot:

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