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Staff Responsibility/Accountability
Topic Started: May 30 2017, 02:31 PM (3,018 Views)
Zetsumodernista
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escaping the real world to face reality
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Has Ciel sent in something to the effect of a second appeal?

I don't have a strong stake in this, and I also lack very strong opinions on this subject, but here are my two cents:

(Toben and Ciel, forgive me for putting words in your mouth).

I think the crux of Toben's and Ciel's argument in favor of keeping the appeal are, roughly:

1. Regular handlers can't see the stuff that goes into staff decisions when that stuff takes place behind closed doors (as they should).
2. Because of this, there must be implicit trust among the handlers that there won't be any abuse and unfairness from staff.
3. For such trust to exist, staff must be absolutely forbidden from engaging in any behaviors that give staff an opportunity to do abusive/unfair things, regardless of whether staff engages in those behaviors for abusive/unfair ends.
4. This event constitutes such a behavior. There was no intent of abuse/unfairness in this situation: the appeal was granted erroneously, then rescinded for more or less legitimate, understandable reasons. However, the fact that staff can rescind appeals means that they more or less have the power to arbitrarily rescind appeals at any time. The fact that this particular rescinding was justified is immaterial; the system has been changed in such a way so as to make it susceptible to abuse/unfairness.
5. Also, Ciel is being punished for staff's mistake, which is blatantly unfair.

(Apologies also to Rattle for putting words in his mouth).

Rattle's argument, insofar as it engages with Toben's, is:

1. It is and ought to be clear to the common handler that, in this particular case, this appeal was granted erroneously. Erroneously granted appeals ought to be rescinded unless doing so has larger (bad) implications.
2. Because the erroneous nature of the appeal is apparent to the average handler in such a way that staff doesn't have to voluntarily disclose anything to explain why the appeal was granted erroneously (that phrase looks disgusting but whatev), staff can rescind the appeal without making the system susceptible to abuse/unfairness. Basically, we know why this rescinding is justified, even without staff explaining their reasoning. This means that staff still can't arbitrarily rescind appeals and pretend they're 'justified'. There is no moving of goalposts, no possibility of rescinding an appeal that was correctly granted, because staff is only capable of rescinding appeals in the particular case that it was a) granted erroneously, and b) clear to the general public that it was granted erroneously, regardless of how much info staff chooses to disclose.
3. If the appeal is not rescinded, this means that individual staffers from now on will have the power to arbitrarily and unilaterally grant appeals without staff discussion, and the remainder of staff won't be able to do anything about it. This is abusive and unfair in its own way.
4. Ciel is being punished for inactivity, not for staff messing up on granting the appeal.

I'm siding (weakly) with staff on this one. I think Toben's (and Ciel's, though I found his stuff harder to parse largely because he has an obvious stake in this matter and this kinda colors his stuff) concerns have been accounted for. That said, I'm of the opinion that this argument shouldn't be considered resolved until either Toben agrees that his concerns have been accounted for, or staff has agreed to grant the appeal again. Ciel as well, to an extent.
dear god dear god tinkle tinkle hoy

G056: Asuka Takahara: The one who can out-pretentious them all.
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Zetsumodernista
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MurderWeasel
 
Among other things, if we really want to get into closed-doors policy, the initial notification was a violation of the twenty-four-hours buffer period designed to account for timezone differences and specifically to neutralize complaints about being warned mid-post... a protocol placed in V4 after the granting of an appeal basically just like this one, and one which I believe I reminded staff about following the sending of an inaccurate terminal notification near the beginning of V6.


This is the main thing, for me. If the original notification was sent erroneously (gah, that doesn't even look like a word anymore), then the appeal should be granted, no questions asked. Staff has to comply with appeals in cases where the original inactivity warning was mistakenly sent.
dear god dear god tinkle tinkle hoy

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Zetsumodernista
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Skimmed the thread again and at a glance this is what I have to say:

Please, please, please tone down the antagonistic language. It literally serves no purpose. It both makes your case sound worse (I personally either feel attacked and dig my heels in, or I stop taking the argument seriously, or both) and escalates the drama. This needs to be more than civil if it's gonna resolve anything.
dear god dear god tinkle tinkle hoy

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Zetsumodernista
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My thoughts are really too jumbled to fully process right now, but at the moment I'm siding against the staff ruling (I can and probably will waffle back and forth here, though). What I'm 95% sure on is that I'm pretty unhappy that staff went ahead and posted the inactive death before this was resolved.
dear god dear god tinkle tinkle hoy

G056: Asuka Takahara: The one who can out-pretentious them all.
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