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Mass Effect Mafia Game Thread
Topic Started: May 1 2017, 07:12 PM (21,759 Views)
MurderWeasel
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Zetsumodernista
May 1 2017, 08:38 PM
Can somebody remind me as to whether Vyse was the one who disapproved of Naft's day 1 strat because boy this looks a lot like Naft's day 1 strat

Looking slightly askance at the immediate clarification; surprised Vyse didn't try to let this play out for a little longer.
I think maybe that was me? It's sometimes me.

VOTE: Empress Plush because I didn't last game and regretted it. Doing a thing so not up to speed on thread yet; this is a joke vote. Real legit thoughts when thing is done.
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Kermit
May 1 2017, 11:04 PM
Uh, oh! Possibly meaningless speculation ahead!

Note that this is all assuming that the reapers are the/a scum group, though I'm like 90% sure they are because of
Decoy at the end of the first post
 
let's kick those Reaper bastards to hell.

Okay, so reaper indoctrination is a pretty important thing in the games, which I'm thinking means there's someone who can switch a townie to scum (I don't think the ability'd have more than one use. It'd be too overpowered). With Toxie starting the game as a confirmed townie, this means that scum could easily get a confirmed townie on their side. Post day-1, we should keep a close eye on any confirmed townies, at least until the (maybe nonexistent) scum-converty-person is dead.
This rubs me slightly wrong--here we see someone already building a case on a confirmed townie. Now, it's possible that this converter role exists, certainly, but this level os setup spec strikes me as preemptive and unfounded.
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Empress Plush
May 1 2017, 11:42 PM
Real talk since apparently we're focusing on this: what does the ability to quote role PMs actually mean for us? Maybe scum has fake claims, or maybe there are town rolls that don't get pictures(say generic townies) or maybe there are other complications. Do we know enough to actually do anything with this info, and if not is there anything that would change that?
Don't like the quoted bit here. Way too early and unprompted for even this soft a claim. I feel like Paige knows better.
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VysePresident
May 2 2017, 12:15 AM
Murder, thoughts on Zetsu?
Eh, I read the quitting comment as a joke but also read your reaction as genuine. I don't think either side would play those cards, and extra uber triply not randomly in the first phase.

What I don't like about Zetsu is this:
Zetsu
 
I'm 95% sure that scum would have fakeclaims, doesn't make much sense to allow role-quoting otherwise.

Also I'm gonna speculate that scum would have daychat for at least 36 hours or something so that they could coordinate fakeclaims, so, like, let them sweat before going full-swing on the discussion pls

I tend to find that when townies speculate they give a range of possibilities rather than just going "Oh let's assume scum has this thing." Like, there are a bazillion things that can screw up mass-claims. Maybe scum has a role that can nuke people if they guess their role. Maybe town has multiple people with the same named role to represent, I dunno, the fact that this game has a customizable protagonist so secretly half the game is all Commander Shepherd. I do think fakeclaims ar elikely especially after they've been pushed in meta recently, but it's not definite.

Similarly, this then informs the jump to daytalk. It's all quite specific. I don't like that since theoretically of town is totally ignorant at the moment.
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Kermit
May 2 2017, 12:31 AM
MW
 
preemptive and unfounded.

Well, I mean my speculation IS both of these. It's definitely preemptive and is pretty much based on flavour.

This game had a scum-converter, which is where I got the idea from. The game's pretty old, so you might want to take it with a pinch of salt.
Right, but why speculate as such based on flavor day one with no other stuff to suggest it or back it up? What I'm seeing right now is foundations being laid to undermine the one thing we theoretically know for sure, and tearing down town knowledge is not town play. That's coupled with another push that scum have safeclaims without much thought given to other possibilities--odd, since the first musing is so niche.

I'm all for trusting nobody--I side-eye innocent children in every game ever myself. But until there's some reason to go beyond that, this is just sowing paranoia and potentially ramping town up to waste a phase shooting itself in the foot.
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Kermit
May 2 2017, 12:35 AM
Also it's speculation. In all likelihood it's probably wrong.
But in that event, why bring it up now? What does town gain by the undercutting of trust in the one person we currently have every reason to trust?

I mean, maybe I'm way off base here; my Mass Effect knowledge is all thirdhand at best. But from a mafia level, I'm not digging what I'm seeing here.
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Zetsumodernista
May 2 2017, 12:53 AM
@Murder: Thoughts on Vyse?

boy I love how discussion's turned serious even though scum daychat could still very well be a thing
Thing is, scum could also easily have no daychat or perma daychat or whole-first-phase daychat. All turn up periodically in SOTF meta.

Thoughts on Vyse forthcoming!
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Empress Plush
May 2 2017, 01:00 AM
Sorry my dude but I have no idea what claim you think I'm making here?
Actually, the opposite of what Zetsu said. I think there's a soft crumbing of non-vanilla-town going on.

re: Daychat, also, what Vyse said. Daychat can let scum do cool stuff and also let them hamstring themselves. If there were some specific thing we gained benefit from scum not coordinating, yeah, sure, wait a few days (like last game where it seemed an exchange was being telegraphed). Otherwise, if scum wanna risk seeming to collaborate? Cool, whatever.
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Vyse read:

Meh, it's early, Vyse has said a lot, it makes sense. This is usually the case regardless. I read his backing down/worrying as very genuine but it also means nothing re: affiliation. Null for now. Vyse in the driver's seat is pretty much the same no matter what until chip start falling into place; it's when he's on the back foot or when there's actually something at stake that he has more notable signs and none of that's the case yet.
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Empress Plush
May 2 2017, 02:05 AM
MK Kilmarnock
May 2 2017, 02:01 AM
Oh and since I'm here and remember it, I AM open to the idea that past day 1, we shouldn't be convinced of the fact that Toxie is permanently town.

This is why you don't reveal yourself as innocent child on day 1.
Curious on this note: Toxie, did you request to be revealed or did Decoy just do it?
His role PM, as quoted here, suggests that it was not voluntary.

This also makes me a bit skeptical that there's a mechanic that screws such a role over in another way; it's a pretty double-edged sword as is.

Catching up on other posts, responses as I read.

Oh, and quick shot to Paige: Your comment does in fact theoretically open the door for info leakage. You're not the top of my list right now and I'm not really interested in fighting it forever, but it sets you up to do pretty much all the stuff you just said my thing does for me; you can later go "Oh, see, I'm not vanilla so don't kill me!" and similarly you can softly pull greater focus from town aligned PRs. I can see where the whole situation might be unintentional, and I liked the confusion in the "What am I doing?" post, but it is still a note on my board.
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Zetsumodernista
May 2 2017, 02:12 AM
look I know that this was a long time ago and that metas change and such but I'm not letting go of this that easily

MurderWeasel in the scum quicktopic from Scrubs Mafia
 
I think we've got a good team and with a bit of luck perhaps we can make this Day One Daychat thing as broken as I really believe it can be.


MW: Why did you think it was broken then? When did your opinion on the brokenness of this mechanic change, and why (obvious answer is last game, but did it maybe happen before)?
I think it's still crazy good with a good team! BUT:

*We don't know the mechanic is in play
*We don't know which flavor of it is in play if it is in fact being used
*We don't know if the scum team can take advantage of it

Thus it is not worth crippling town discussion for, "Hey, maybe this will hurt us in some undefined way down the line!" Daychat is useful for relieving pressure and for coordinating pushes, neither of which have anything to do with what we've seen so far. If there's a specific thing you don't want scum talking on, then by all means subtly (and this is something our meta is pretty bad at, honestly) set it aside a while and then pick it back up, like I did last game.

Turnabout: What do you speculate collaborative scum could glean from the day's discussions thus far? In what way might they be benefited?
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Zetsumodernista
May 2 2017, 02:40 AM
As to the odd specificity thing: I think decoy is better than creating a very-easily-broken game, and the only way I can think of to keep it from being broken is by giving scum fakeclaims (yes there are other ways, but frankly they're kinda out there and certainly unheard of in the sotf meta as far as I know)

The 'scum has day 1 daychat' thing isn't a lock, but a very definite possibility given that it is a) common in the meta, and b) makes sense if scum have fakeclaims. And I'm almost certain scum have fakeclaims.
I gave half of Star Wars mafia the same role PM, so it's not that distanced. Also, assuming something new cannot occur until it does is a great way to throw the first game where every new mechanic is introduced. We've never had an innocent child co-opted, but there's no complaint about the speculation there.

Honestly, scum won't really need to coordinate fakeclaims in any regular claim setup. Typically, there's either an external order or it's vaguely a free for all, and if the former it's just whoever goes last is screwed, while if it's the latter scum just needs to pay minimal attention to the activity page to not step on each other's toes.
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Zetsumodernista
May 2 2017, 02:51 AM
This is minor, but not a fan of how Murder adjusted his argument like this after Vyse talked. The first quote, without the inclusion of the second, is quite bad. Murder is paranoid, breezily dismissing partial-day-1-daychat with a 'but maybe they don't have partial-day-1-daychat!' is unlike him.
Nah, what's unlike me is kneecapping ourselves based on possibilities that we have no indication are or are not in play.

What I don't like about your play here (and Kermit's, to an extent) is it's all about restricting possibilities and slowing town down based on absolutely nothing besides other games having worked that way in the past. But then, when met with different games that break or complicate the trend, they're summarily ignored.
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Flare
May 2 2017, 10:12 AM
As a Mass Effect fan, I could see a lot of different characters having flavor text with the word 'killboner' in it.
Thanks for preempting the question I was about to ask.
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Kermit
May 2 2017, 01:31 PM
1. I'm pretty sure there has to be some purpose behind Toxie's role. I'm not sure why an Innocent Child role would be in the game otherwise. (Note: I haven't had any experience w/ the innocent child role, so feel free to correct me if need be.)

2. I'd like to hear from people who have little/no posts. Prim, Toxie (especially, because he probably has an unbiased opinion), Brackie (posted an excuse for not posting, which I'm okay with), Volt, RC, and Inge all have one post. Boogie (posted while I was writing this. Curses!), frogue (though I can understand why), Grim Wolf, and Randomness (Who I've seen viewing the thread) all have none.
1. Honestly, it's often just to shake things up. It gives town a confirmed voice, but it also paints a target on their head. Making it immediate and compulsory weakens the role slightly compared to one that can go off whenever, so is just a slightly lighter chunk of town's power budget.

2. I know I harp on this a lot, and I don't mean this as a call out of you but rather as a general reminder:

I get that it's frustrating to see folks reading the thread and not posting. I really, really do. But there are a lot of good reasons that happens, and especially with fast-moving threads it can leave things feeling less friendly than ideal (and that's not to mention that it puts some staff in an awkward position as they can see anon lurkers and normal users can't [unless they're totally pro and use the secret workaround ;)]). I already check the thread on an incognito tab if I can't commit some time to replying, and I don't really want that to be the norm (it's mostly my personal hangups). So, just a general request, can we maybe try not to do the "I've seen y'all reading, please chime in," thing? I'd gladly replace it with "Y'all have said and contributed diddly squat, please chime in," same rough effect but doesn't encourage people to avoid reading the thread if they don't have a bunch of time to commit.
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