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Super Dangan Ronpa 2 Mafia Fallout Thread; thank god
Topic Started: Jul 28 2015, 04:57 AM (820 Views)
MK Kilmarnock
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Hate, hate, HATE!!!
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
I described it to you as it was described in my role PM. I then received some clarification from Yugi... and decided to omit the detail that I inexplicably counted as town instead of scum, so when you inevitably lynched me I could laugh at you.

It was funny because after I gave up and said 'fuck it I'm traitor', I just started telling the truth.
V6 Tributes

Spoilers, Ricky didn't win V5

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VysePresident
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Long-winded, meticulous, & thoughtful. Mostly long-winded though.
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So, first off, thank you mod for donating your time to this game. It's much appreciated, given the real stuff you've mentioned in passing, and I think with some fine tuning, you could do some really cool stuff.

You guys can see all my plans in the Deadthread & Scum Thread. I did realize (A little late, but in time to rework my claim.) that Imehal had claimed JOAT, and I couldn't really claim it either. I was going to go with the idea that I was a flavorless vanilla gambitting to get NK'd instead of lynched. (To be fair, I've considered doing that before as Town, if I could do it without outing any actual roles.)

MK you're the hardest son of a submariner that I've ever had to lynch before, you bum. :P

In terms of critiquing the game itself, I think the game was hugely in scum's favor - the only truly useful, known Town role was the Cop. The Bodyguard & Medium were basically two different forms of backup for said Cop. Unfortunately, with all three scum roles having heavy, Anti-Cop utilities, that basically turned the Town Cop into more of a threat than a help - if Aura had investigated Imehal any other day but Day #1, she'd have come up as Town. (The MK thing would have sealed it anyway, but I'm focusing on balance right now.)

I wish there'd been more activity, because I'd have preferred a strong Town to go against, but there's only so much we can do about that. :/

I'm kinda happy with being able to pull it off - RC was the NK, not an inactive kill, FYI, though the difference is academic.
Constructive criticism is always welcome! Feel free to send me a PM if you have any pointers or feedback you'd like to share!

Character #1: Boy #37 Ian Williams - Now with 55% less self-insert.
Designated Weapon: Polaroid Instant Camera With Film (Enough for 8 photographs)

Past - | 1 | 2 | (Current thread - Birds of a Feather)
Pregame - None
Island - | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | (Final Thread - Glass
)
Character #2: Boy #66 Chase Rodriguez - Adopted from Pippin.
Designated Weapon: Silver Pill Box Containing Three Cyanide Capsules

Past - None
Pregame - | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | (Last seen in - Diversions)
Island - | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | (Final Thread - Drawing to an End)



(Relationships Planning Thread #Pi)
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VysePresident
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Long-winded, meticulous, & thoughtful. Mostly long-winded though.
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The Burned Handler
Jul 28 2015, 02:12 PM
That has nothing to do with my lack of desire to ever play again. That's due to a combination of the sheer incompetence of this game, and a bunch of bad shit happening IRL at the same time. Quite honestly the impression I've been left with is Mafia simply isn't fun.
I'm going to say it was probably just a bad game, but I understand if you want to leave it alone at this point.

Either way, take care sir.
Constructive criticism is always welcome! Feel free to send me a PM if you have any pointers or feedback you'd like to share!

Character #1: Boy #37 Ian Williams - Now with 55% less self-insert.
Designated Weapon: Polaroid Instant Camera With Film (Enough for 8 photographs)

Past - | 1 | 2 | (Current thread - Birds of a Feather)
Pregame - None
Island - | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | (Final Thread - Glass
)
Character #2: Boy #66 Chase Rodriguez - Adopted from Pippin.
Designated Weapon: Silver Pill Box Containing Three Cyanide Capsules

Past - None
Pregame - | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | (Last seen in - Diversions)
Island - | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | (Final Thread - Drawing to an End)



(Relationships Planning Thread #Pi)
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VysePresident
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Now, balance issues aside for a second, I did like that Yugi was willing to play around with some new roles. I kinda like having something more than the traditional Cop/Docter/Vig vs. Godfather/Strongman/Roleblocker. If it were balanced, I think it could be fun.

That said, I think that such a game should probably be described as "Experimental" in sign-ups, maybe, just like bastard games need to be noted as well, to avoid player frustration. (Role Madness works too if everyone has a Power Role, just because those are basically always experimental.)

If you're going to run a more normal game, I think the crazier roles should be maxed at one or two.

Just my 0.2.
Constructive criticism is always welcome! Feel free to send me a PM if you have any pointers or feedback you'd like to share!

Character #1: Boy #37 Ian Williams - Now with 55% less self-insert.
Designated Weapon: Polaroid Instant Camera With Film (Enough for 8 photographs)

Past - | 1 | 2 | (Current thread - Birds of a Feather)
Pregame - None
Island - | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | (Final Thread - Glass
)
Character #2: Boy #66 Chase Rodriguez - Adopted from Pippin.
Designated Weapon: Silver Pill Box Containing Three Cyanide Capsules

Past - None
Pregame - | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | (Last seen in - Diversions)
Island - | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | (Final Thread - Drawing to an End)



(Relationships Planning Thread #Pi)
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VysePresident
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[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Also, Town needed Investigative roles outside of the Cop - A tracker, a Watcher, that sort of thing. Something to get around scum abilities.
Constructive criticism is always welcome! Feel free to send me a PM if you have any pointers or feedback you'd like to share!

Character #1: Boy #37 Ian Williams - Now with 55% less self-insert.
Designated Weapon: Polaroid Instant Camera With Film (Enough for 8 photographs)

Past - | 1 | 2 | (Current thread - Birds of a Feather)
Pregame - None
Island - | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | (Final Thread - Glass
)
Character #2: Boy #66 Chase Rodriguez - Adopted from Pippin.
Designated Weapon: Silver Pill Box Containing Three Cyanide Capsules

Past - None
Pregame - | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | (Last seen in - Diversions)
Island - | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | (Final Thread - Drawing to an End)



(Relationships Planning Thread #Pi)
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Deamon
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Humans...
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
So yeah I won...woot. I don't know what the endgame plan was but fuck it. I survived and that's what matters.
Forrest Quin - At the Zoo
Bret Carter - On a date
Aliya Kimia Nemati - In Training
Arizona - Practicing
V6
V5
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MurderWeasel
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You've been counting stars, now you're counting on me
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Okie dokie, my thoughts:

The Good:

Basically, this game did a few really fresh and interesting things that I liked a lot, and tackled a few common problems in very creative ways.
  • Mass claim protection: I was pretty delighted that Yugi had some really good countermeasures in place to prevent the day one cheese from town's end. It's something I don't see in some games, and having it how it was here made for very interesting discussions and gambits. I think it needs noting that there are actually balance concerns based on the way things are handled in preventing mass claims, and one way or another can easily favor town or scum.

    A common trick is to give scum safe claims (I give them X-1 in normal setups, where X = the number of scum). Whether a safe claim comprises fluff, a role, or both can vary--obviously, the more scum has, the more powerful this makes them re: passing undetected. Safe claims with both fluff and roles are really powerful unless there's some sort of tell/the roles are hard to fake.

    The other option is, as in this game, having no safe claims but lots of town members sharing a similar role. Having that role be flavorless, and having it not necessarily track to PR/lack thereof, worked really well in dissuading the strategy (though there were some pretty big issues with one part of the handling--more on that below).
  • Innovation: I love games that are willing to try new things--and I don't mean just in terms of weird power roles. This game was generally speaking really hard to figure out, and I think that, handled carefully, that's a really cool experience. It's especially that way for people who've played a ton of mafia. This game was one where any number of weird paranoid theories came up--an the actual result was weirder than all of them. And that's without everyone having a power or coming back from the dead or being a cop or whatever (all of which can be fun in their own rights). It really captured the paranoid experience that's at the heart of mafia for me, and that was great.
  • Modkills: This could have been better for sure, but you know what? It takes a lot to modkill people when doing so screws the game up, and I think it's 100% the right decision--perhaps not for the present game, but for the state of SOTF mafia as a whole. Inactivity is something that shuts down games and has been such a huge and strange part of our meta for a long time--I can't exactly point t where it started, but it's gotten to be a big deal. Seeing action from the mod side and players realizing when they were unable to continue and bowing out was really heartening to me, and while I think it could've done with a bit more of each in some cases it was a huge step in the right direction.


The Not-So-Good:

Now, other stuff didn't go so well. Here's a breakdown of what I think didn't work and what might help improve future games:
  • Mod activity: This is a thing that seems small but my observations have suggested it's actually pretty much make or break for game activity. If you're modding mafia, I really believe you should post a vote count and deadline countdown every single day. I get why it can seem like a lot when a game balloons twenty pages overnight, but there's a really simple trick I've found: skim.

    The whole rationale behind votes being in bright bold red is so that they're easy to pick out. That means you don't have to bother reading the posts as mod--you're not gonna be voting and know the roles anyways--just skim for votes and update things once a day. I use the zetaboards notepad function and just have a template that I then update every single time a vote changes. I post updates even in phases where there are no vote changes. It usually takes about five minutes if there was a ton that happened. If you miss something because someone formatted wrong, hey, that's their problem for formatting wrong. That's why you ask for the red.

    The reason this is such a big deal is that a constant stream of updates and votes adds some pressure and sense of momentum to the game. It lets people who are less involved at least have a hint of how the game is trending, and it lets everyone know super clearly when the deadline is. It does encourage sheeping votes, but I'd personally take sheeped lynches over inactivity any day of the week.
  • Clarity: I really favor games that overexplain if in doubt. Basically, there are a lot of fiddly details that don't seem to matter but actually do. What time zone is the game's clock on? What order do actions resolve in? What sort of results will a cop get? What happens if a roleblocker is roleblocked while blocking someone else? Do you get a message if roleblocked, and if so, what is it?

    The thing is, it's super possible to answer these questions on the fly, but doing so can screw players up by deviating from the norm (and what "the norm" is in mafia depends massively on your home meta, so assumptions are never safe). For instance, in this game, Ricky's cop results showing as Traitor threw him and Aura for a huge loop because it functioned as effectively a role and alignment scan. There are potential issues here (if Aura knew at first that his results would be TOWN, SCUM, or TRAITOR then he would know there was a traitor in play since the start of the game, while if it was a unified THIRD-PARTY then the information gained by the scan would be less useful). In general, though, if I think anyone could even possibly be confused I like to have things spelled out, and I think that could have helped this game a good deal just in terms of deadlines/vote-counts/whatever.

    Also, as a rule, if you're making anything nonstandard, I think it's really good to think about why and what effects if may have. If you have a double-voter, know how you'll deal with vote counts (and definitely don't just skip them--you'll have to be perfect so your players know that any incongruities are due to funny business and not mistakes, or you'll have to include a placeholder "ANONYMOUS" name or something).
  • Balance: This is the big one, and factors into the next point. Basically, as I've reconstructed things, the town had the following power roles: a cop, a bodyguard, a medium, a one-shot bulletproof (who didn't realize it), and possibly a bomb (I spent all game assuming I was one but was in fact told I was a townie). Scum, meanwhile, had a traitor and three power roles, each of which could at will detect as town.

    Right off the bat, that presents a game skewed massively in favor of scum, because town's sole tool to catch scum out from a power standpoint was compromised by every single member of the scum team. The medium and the bodyguard are both roles that serve, effectively, as power multipliers. A bodyguard dies so a more important role won't, and a medium is a safety net to get info from dead important players. Both offer town almost nothing on their own, and in this setup seemed to be there to give a hand to the cop--but the cop was basically useless because only Ricky could reliably be caught out and scum could appear as town and make town appear as scum. It would honestly have been skewed in favor of scum even without the inclusion of a traitor, just because town had a single power role capable of catching out of mitigating scum's actions in a meaningful way and that role was massively compromised due to scum's powers.

    This also ties to Un's and my roles. Secret roles are really iffy for balance in most cases because they keep players from playing optimally. Bulletproof townies, to have value to town, need to try to draw nightkills. Bombs need to work hard to draw only scum kills while not setting off vigs/JOATS. And again, for all I know I was a miller and/or actually a vanilla townie--I basically gambled on my understanding of the fluff carrying me this game. Secret roles can certainly be thematically cool, and can absolutely be done well (I favor secret millers myself), but the suboptimal play they force needs to be factored into the game balance, because they will just flat out not be as useful to their teams as players who know what they're doing (and can, in fact, be active hindrances--see: Un figuring he didn't matter and playing as townie, then blocking a lynch and tripping town up in the lategame). In general, having extra confusing roles (flavorless is townie except when it's bulletproof (Un) or when possibly-townie has flavor (Me) favors scum more than town because scum at least knows the score with their own powers.
  • Counterplay: Stealing this term from video game discussions. Basically, it refers to the ability to counteract strategies. A great example is follow-the-cop.

    Follow-the-cop can be problematic if poorly balanced because it forces scum to chase the doctor or play whack-a-mole with confirmed townies without ever actually getting rid of the cop (and therefore likely losing unless they get lucky and hit the doctor before the number of confirmed townies is insurmountable). This situation is absolutely problematic (though I take exception to the idea that cops as a role are in any way problematic on their own in any sort of well-balanced game--in fact, mafia as a game mathematically breaks down in some pretty stupid ways without power roles of various sorts and the cop is the best choice for forcing town to not play the boring yet safe game.

    The typical counterplay to follow the cop is to give scum: a. a role that detects as town (often the godfather), b. a role that can shut down the cop even if no kill occurs (often a roleblocker), c. a role that can shut down the cop despite protection (usually a limited-shot strongman), or d. some option to render the cop unreliable (a framer, a miller who has no clue they are one, etc.). Redundancy here is a good thing because it means the cop can't go "Oh, roleblocker's dead, now town wins!" For Star Wars mafia, for example, I gave scum a godfather, a roleblocker, and a strongman kill, which meant that for the cop to be totally safe and accurate, the game would effectively have to be over (or scum would have had to allocate their resources poorly). Ideally, a cop should be always be worried about full-claiming because doing so runs a good risk of leading to them being rendered impotent.

    The issue in this game was that scum had a. members that could detect as town (three of them, in fact) and b. the ability to make members of town detect as scum. This effectively neutralized the cop, who was, again, town's sole proactive power role. In fact, it allowed them to use the cop to their advantage following a claim.

    This isn't necessarily bad! I actually don't think the scum PR spread was in any way conceptually overpowered, and thematically it made for a really interesting team. If I had to make one change, I'd say letting the framer only frame people would have made the team a lot more balanced by preventing the turtling strat vs. detection (the same reason doctors can't target themselves in most metas).

    The big problem was that the cop was town's only way of dealing with what scum could do. See, town needs ways to handle scum just as scum needs ways to handle town. In a typical game, the most common town roles I see are a doctor, a cop, a roleblocker, and a vigilante. All of these roles in some fashion counter scum. The doctor, by picking well, can stop scum's nightkill from going through (giving town more room to make the right choices and potentially saving key roles). The cop can detect scum and confirm town. The roleblocker, by choosing well, can prevent scum's kill from going through and can shut down other active scum roles (their own roleblockers depending on action priority, role cops, etc.). The vigilante can overrule the lynch process and go straight to a kill (potentially, if targeted well, catching out scum and tilting the balance back in favor of town). Each of these roles have their own counters as well, both from scum kills knocking them out of play/scum roleblockers locking them down, and from their own actions requiring careful aiming to accomplish anything (and, in the case of the roleblocker/vig/sometimes even doctor, to not screw over town).

    The issue in this game was that town had no meaningful way to prevent any action scum took. The bodyguard could redirect a kill, but doing so still ticks the clock down towards scum victory. The only role that could absorb a kill and waste a phase for scum had no idea he had that role, and ended up wasting a phase for town instead, again unknowingly. If I was a bomb, that was an option to take out a member of scum guaranteed if I got hit, but again because I didn't know it it wasn't really something working in town's favor (and actively worked against them if I was wrong in my guess).

    If town had a watcher or tracker, they could have checked actions. If they had a roleblocker, they could have locked down some portion of scum's ability to juke the cop. If they had a doctor, they could have kept voices alive and kept LyLo from being quite so looming a threat. If they had a vig, they could've knocked out members of scum without wasting a phase and possibly counteracted some of the inactivity. Without any of that, it's no surprise the game devolved into follow-the-cop because there was literally no other option built into the town's PR spread, and because the scum team was perfectly tuned to completely counter and punish follow-the-cop, town was in a really awful state from the get-go. Scum could have just turtled and focused on detecting as town and there would have been nothing the cop could do to get around it and nothing anyone else on the town team could have contributed from a PR perspective.
  • Dead Chat: I really, really think that this was a game that needed to not have a dead chat. Normally I love dead chats, but in this case there was a role who could talk with dead players, and people in dead chat casually spoil stuff all the time. If, say, a scum member got lynched first day and told the nightkilled target who everyone on scum was and then Bik asked them and claimed, that would have instantly ruined scum's chances for really silly reasons. If there's any chance of players coming back, I feel like they need to be isolated from each other for the game's duration.

    This sits awkwardly with replacements, but in general I feel that replacing back into the game and having a dead chat are mutually exclusive, because a dead chat is a section of game discussion that nobody alive can see, and that dead players can still check if they replace back in. It makes it really hard for living players to know where returnees are getting their ideas from. Did a bunch of dead PRs compare notes? Did one player talk everyone else into a crazy theory for kicks and giggles? It's totally impossible to say, which is really unfair on everyone who does not have access to that information.

    This actually has pretty big game impacts, too. On the first day, I tossed Doc under the bus despite actually being ~75% sure he was town, for various reasons. In doing so, I made some very shaky plays that I knew certain people would or would not notice. When he came back, it was really tough for me to tell if he was pointing fingers my way due to the earlier situation or due to being scum. The thing is, had I recognized the possibility of returning players, I would have played the first phase entirely differently so as to not compromise potential reads later on. I assumed due to the balance issues above that the issue wasn't going to come up, and when it did it really threw me for a loop--and all of the balance problems were still super valid concerns.





    That got long. Despite my nitpicking/theory crafting, I at least actually had a lot of fun with the unusual setup of this game and thought there was a lot of cool stuff going on in theory in the construction. Part of why I've been so thorough in breaking it down is that I think if Yugi ever runs it again elsewhere it has a ton of potential to be amazing, and the other part is that a lot of this is stuff I've been kicking around for a few games and think can be generally useful to mods in the future. This game, due to its recent finish and providing some examples of places where things didn't go smoothly, makes a great launching point for discussion. I haven't read page two of discussion yet due to this taking a while and manifesting over multiple sittings, so apologies for any redundancies. I'll follow stuff here up maybe if I have the time/inclination.
V7:
Juliette Sargent drawn by Mimi and Ryuki
Alton Gerow drawn by Mimi
Lavender Ripley drawn by Mimi
Phillip Olivares drawn by Ryuki
Library Vee
Misty Browder
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Imehal
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The Captain America of alien fighting.
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RC, don't feel bad about being inactive in the game. It was not just you, and the game was overall a little outside of the norm.

I... think I enjoyed myself by the end, and my lack of 'bah!' post was not because of bad feelings. I had a LARP weekend suddenly to pack for, and I wasn't quite sure what to say that wouldn't have been spoiler-y.

I basically want to apologise to my team. I went on my own gut with that 'report', accidentally outed the Traitor and I honestly think we would have lost had others not played blinding games during and after my demise. Looking at how the game ended, choosing to 'confirm' RC as Town might not have done us any favours either but at least Kilmarnock would have been safe. So that was my bad, and I'm sorry.

Giving my own cursory thoughts on the set-up, I think a simplified format and a little more diligence in terms of staying atop of the game's mechanics and updates would have benefited you massively Yugi. Maybe next time have a secondary moderator to help you? The roles being a little wacky was original and I liked that, but I think overall the theme took over and gave a massive advantage to us as Mafia. If I hadn't slipped up with that report, it could have been a relatively easy win.

I had fun, I think I did okay at being Mafia, and I need to have a better grasp of my own importance within a Mafia team! Lessons to carry forward.

Thank you everyone, and see you in the next game! =>
[No claims on the avatar image]
v6 Relationship Thread Here!
v6
v5
You are all crazy!
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MK Kilmarnock
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Hate, hate, HATE!!!
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Yeeeeah, you fucked us both. Hahahaha...

I like to think it's because, for SOME reason, you guys thought that I was the most likely bet for being a townie. I'll take it as a compliment.
V6 Tributes

Spoilers, Ricky didn't win V5

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VysePresident
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Long-winded, meticulous, & thoughtful. Mostly long-winded though.
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
I think I'm the only one who ever scumread you before the Cop Guilty, MK, and even then, it was tentative. Like I've said, you're really good at presenting an amiable, reasonable front.
Constructive criticism is always welcome! Feel free to send me a PM if you have any pointers or feedback you'd like to share!

Character #1: Boy #37 Ian Williams - Now with 55% less self-insert.
Designated Weapon: Polaroid Instant Camera With Film (Enough for 8 photographs)

Past - | 1 | 2 | (Current thread - Birds of a Feather)
Pregame - None
Island - | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | (Final Thread - Glass
)
Character #2: Boy #66 Chase Rodriguez - Adopted from Pippin.
Designated Weapon: Silver Pill Box Containing Three Cyanide Capsules

Past - None
Pregame - | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | (Last seen in - Diversions)
Island - | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | (Final Thread - Drawing to an End)



(Relationships Planning Thread #Pi)
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VysePresident
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Long-winded, meticulous, & thoughtful. Mostly long-winded though.
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Also, in the name of tradition.

Posted Image
Constructive criticism is always welcome! Feel free to send me a PM if you have any pointers or feedback you'd like to share!

Character #1: Boy #37 Ian Williams - Now with 55% less self-insert.
Designated Weapon: Polaroid Instant Camera With Film (Enough for 8 photographs)

Past - | 1 | 2 | (Current thread - Birds of a Feather)
Pregame - None
Island - | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | (Final Thread - Glass
)
Character #2: Boy #66 Chase Rodriguez - Adopted from Pippin.
Designated Weapon: Silver Pill Box Containing Three Cyanide Capsules

Past - None
Pregame - | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | (Last seen in - Diversions)
Island - | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | (Final Thread - Drawing to an End)



(Relationships Planning Thread #Pi)
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MK Kilmarnock
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Hate, hate, HATE!!!
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Already beat you to it.
V6 Tributes

Spoilers, Ricky didn't win V5

Things We Say
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VysePresident
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Long-winded, meticulous, & thoughtful. Mostly long-winded though.
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
But mine's in the Fallout Thread. :P
Constructive criticism is always welcome! Feel free to send me a PM if you have any pointers or feedback you'd like to share!

Character #1: Boy #37 Ian Williams - Now with 55% less self-insert.
Designated Weapon: Polaroid Instant Camera With Film (Enough for 8 photographs)

Past - | 1 | 2 | (Current thread - Birds of a Feather)
Pregame - None
Island - | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | (Final Thread - Glass
)
Character #2: Boy #66 Chase Rodriguez - Adopted from Pippin.
Designated Weapon: Silver Pill Box Containing Three Cyanide Capsules

Past - None
Pregame - | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | (Last seen in - Diversions)
Island - | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | (Final Thread - Drawing to an End)



(Relationships Planning Thread #Pi)
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