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Community Mafia: Game Thread; #6seasonsandamafia
Topic Started: Sep 29 2013, 04:24 PM (13,164 Views)
Aura
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Sorry for my curmudgeonly comments, it's just been a long time since I've played Mafia. I've gotten more used to Survivor RPs in the meantime, where I had to start fighting right from the get-go.

Also, I'm back in school so I'll be missing for several hours a day. Just letting you guys know.
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Slam
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That sooooooo doesn't answer my question. What I asked is why you felt the need to specifically look up a quote from me to support a tiny statement like that.
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BROseidon
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Not gonna wall-quote because wall-quoting sucks for everyone:

@MW:

Re the entire block of text before you vote me - Yeah, people on here need to be better about activity. That's generally true. But sheeping or pushing non-first choices is how town gets stuff done, and people here tend not to do that. The core issue from what I've seen is that people are afraid of mislynching without realizing that every 2 NLs costs you a mislynch, and that towns, even the best ones, will mislynch sometimes.

Now for the meatier stuff:

1) I'll try to tone down the theory. I'm a theory-heavy player, so this might be hard.

2) I'm talking with you and penguin first because 1: I know you'll both respond and 2: You're the two highest priorities for me to sort; penguin because I understand decently well how she plays and you because you tend to dictate the day phase more than other players. Sorting the lurkier players is less of a priority, especially if, after N1, we can just Vig all lurkers.

3) It's less of a choice and more of a subconscious thing. I'm not used to the baseline here of people not knowing basic terms. It's been like 6 months since I've been in a game here, and I've been in more than 15 completed or ongoing games on MS during that time.

Re Grim:

No Lynch is never acceptable except in very specific cases. The information gained from a lynch going through is better worth far more than the 1/2 of a mislynch you save by nolynching.

I'm also just an aggressive player. Putting down a vote early doesn't mean I necessarily want a lynch. Wagons are tools for forcing people to respond to something. If people don't wagon, you don't get pressure anywhere, which means nothing happens.

Re penguin:

I agree re MW, but I'm not going to give him a pass that quickly. I've had too many games where one of my early gut townreads ended up scum, and I didn't calibrate quickly enough in response (like that time I couldn't get you to lynch bork >.>)

I disagree re Grim. It looks less like sorting and more like buddying to me. However, I do like his preference to scum hunting over shaking pressure.

I've got to run now, but I'll get the theory post up later.
The Living:

Matt Vartoogian -- Weapon: Unarmed -- "This isn't a game. This is evil." -- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
Cassandra Black -- Weapon: Kama -- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
Virgil Jefferson-Davis -- Weapon: Saiga-12 -- "Ave Imperator, morituri te salutant." -- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11
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MurderWeasel
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Yeah, that all makes sense and is very sound. I especially like the part about pressure voting; it's a tactic I am very very fond of and I could go into a whole rant about why FoS is the worst thing ever and you should really just vote instead, but I'll save that in case it becomes relevant.

UNVOTE

Also, just to state for the record, I do agree that mislynches tend to be better than no lynches. What I think I've failed to convey properly is that I'd like us to have a big paper trail for all lynches, even, no, especially the bad ones. Scum can win by stalling out and picking town off, but they can also win if lynches go down without leaving a trail. In that case, future lynches are uninformed and we see a reduction in the number of night phases any investigative roles have to parse stuff out and potentially sow information of their own. I hate relying on night roles, but I'd rather that than lynches which just aren't gonna give us anything at all if they go awry.

So, this is a long way of saying I think we're driving at the same goals, but from different angles.

As to quote walls: Yeah, I'll try to do that a bit less. One part of the theory thing is that I've noted a lot of participants disengage hard if stuff gets too long, and unfortunately our active players (and I include myself here as I'm probably among the most guilty of this) tend to run really long and complex. I just want to coax overall participation, so we can make educated calls wherever possible.
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Un-Persona
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Un-Persona, if you think BROseidon is no longer vote-worthy, why do you think Zabriel is scum for defending him?


The short answer is: I don't, for either of those things.

To expand on that, Bro has been overly aggressive (more then usual) and that is worth some concern, but not worth my immediate attention as of right now.

I don't think Zabriel is necessarily scum for defending bro, but I do find it odd that he jumped to Bro's defense so quickly, and I'm wondering why.

On that note...

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Right now you just look twitchy and it's concerning me.

Grim's vote is interesting, and Bro's vote makes sense. Grim is voting MW basically because MW is good at Mafia, but based on my memory and experience Slam is better at fucking everybody, so if we're doing it like that he seems a better vote. I'm a little more inclined to agree with MW's last than Bro's (the point about dry humor in particular), but as far as early-game cases go it's compelling enough to attract my attention.


Twitchy? Oh, I'm so sure.

I'm curious, Zab, why didn't you elaborate on Grim's vote earlier when you said it was interesting in the first place?
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Aura
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Okay, I would like to point out that we shouldn't immediately target people just because they are good at Mafia, at least not without reasonable suspicion. Yes, MW and Slam are incredibly good at the game, but that doesn't automatically make them Mafia. Being too quick to lynch is almost never a good thing.
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BROseidon
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Here's a list of common mafia terms that pop up frequently, just so I don't have to define shit every 5 posts:

RVS: Random Voting Stage. Refers to the start of the game where people vote randomly to generate initial content.
RQS: Random Questions Stage. Like RVS, except with questions instead of votes. Most players prefer RVS.
Wagon: A series of votes placed on a single person. Short for "bandwagon."
L-x: X is the number of votes necessary for a lynch to be reached. Typically used towards the end of a wagon.
Claim: Someone claiming their flavor/role
Mass Claim: When everyone, in a pre-determined sequence (or one that is determined as the claiming occurs), claims their role.
Chainsaw: Defending a player by attacking those who are attacking him.
Buddy: Trying to appear as less of a threat to someone by being overly nice and agreeable towards them.
V/LA: Vacaion/Limited Access. Basically mafiascum's version of away.
MS: mafiascum.net
VCA: Vote Count Analysis. The practice of trying to determine scum by looking at voting patterns.
NK: Night Kill
Flavor Claim: Claiming the flavor of one's role PM without claiming the role.
Scum: Refers to anyone whose wincon is against the town's.
Multiball: Typically refers to any game with multiple mafia factions. Sometimes will be used to describe a game with a mafia and serial killer.
Bus: When scum intentionally push for their team mate's lynch.
White Knighting: When scum defend someone they know to be town so that they'll look better when that person is mislynched.
OMGUS: "Oh my God, you suck." When someone calls their attacker scum for attacking them.
AtE: Appeal to emotion. When someone tries to use emotional tools instead of logical ones to convince others.
IIoA: Information instead of analysis. Refers to someone summarizing content instead of analyzing it.
Meta: Short of "metagame." Refers to how someone typically plays.
VI: Village Idiot. Someone who doesn't contribute much and spams up the thread.
PR: Power Role
X-Shot: Refers to a PR that may only be used X times.
Even/Odd night: Refers to a PR that may only be used on even or odd nights.
Hammer: The vote that lynches someone.
Quickhammer: When someone hammers before adequate discussion happens. Typically done by scum in LyLo.
LyLo: Lynch or Lose. Refers to the gamestate when scum win unless town successfully lynches scum.
MyLo: Mislynch and Lose. Refers to the gamestate when scum win if town mislynches.
XyLo: Refers to both LyLo and MyLo.
Hydra: An account on MS that two people control, effectively allowing two people to play one slot of a game.
Town Block: A group of people who are either mod-confirmed town or very strong universal townreads.
Associative Tell: Something that is indicative of scum not because it is scummy in a void, but because of how it relates to another person (who is scum).
The Living:

Matt Vartoogian -- Weapon: Unarmed -- "This isn't a game. This is evil." -- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
Cassandra Black -- Weapon: Kama -- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
Virgil Jefferson-Davis -- Weapon: Saiga-12 -- "Ave Imperator, morituri te salutant." -- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11
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VysePresident
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Confirming. Sorry I took so long - I've been suffering from eye-strain over the past two days, and it's only recently gotten slightly bearable again. I probably won't be as active as I'd like over the next couple of days, lest my eyes go POP! POP!, but I'll do what I can.

Let's start with - VOTE: SKRAAL

That last exchange is the first thing to really hit my radar as seriously scummy. Why did you quote Slam? Why did you turn around and start attacking Slam after he corrected you? Also, given that you seem to suspect him, why haven't you used your vote?

Initially, it seems like an attempt to avoid responsibility for your statement by using Slam's supposed soft support. The insistence that he was the one making the mistake about his own words following his rebuttal, coupled with a soft accusation, just makes it feel like a panicky deflection. So, in short, I'd highly appreciate a clarification on your thought process here.


Oh, and while I'm here, here's my two cents on Grim and Bro. Grim's vote is worthy of a raised eyebrow, but judging from the last game, it isn't rare for townies to keep an eye on Murder, with some reason. I think maybe five of us were worried about him in PR, and unless I'm forgetting something, I was the only one to offer an actual case for it. For that reason, I'm inclined to let his one go for now. It's pretty much the norm for people to jump on Murder, right or wrong.

Bro actually managed to do a little bit more than raise an eyebrow, in that I feel he's been a lot more aggressive than helpful for the reasons Murder's already pointed out. His reasoning is sound enough that I'm willing to give him a pass, especially since I believe mafiascum encourages a very aggressive playstyle, but I do find the idea of a blind lynch being preferable to none to be questionable. I'll grant I'm not highly experienced, but my belief is that, while we should try for a first day lynch, it isn't the lynch itself that's important just yet - it's the information. Far better to search for answers and risk missing the lynch than getting the lynch and missing the answers.


As a final note to Grim, Murder always plays this way - He's a brilliant mafia player precisely because he plays the role of highly useful townie regardless of whether or not he's scum. (See the last game for an excellent example of how to play scum. His strategies were excellent. His 'suspicions' and votes, on the other hand, had the town chasing its tail) Generally, I believe it pays to be cautious with him, but going after him is a waste of time until you've had a few day phases to gauge how his advice is effecting the town.
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BROseidon
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Sep 30 2013, 07:28 PM
The short answer is: I don't, for either of those things.

To expand on that, Bro has been overly aggressive (more then usual) and that is worth some concern, but not worth my immediate attention as of right now.
Oh yes, that 6-month old pre-MS meta of mine is so valuable...

Also, if I'm not worth your immediate attention, what is? It's not like you're multitasking 2-3 conversations right now.
The Living:

Matt Vartoogian -- Weapon: Unarmed -- "This isn't a game. This is evil." -- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
Cassandra Black -- Weapon: Kama -- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
Virgil Jefferson-Davis -- Weapon: Saiga-12 -- "Ave Imperator, morituri te salutant." -- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11
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BROseidon
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@Vyse: Yes, MS teaches aggression a lot more than this site does. I'm also bringing out the claws more here for two reason: first, there aren't that many other people I can rely on to keep the game moving, and second, day phases here are very short, which means that play has to move faster to get a lynch.

Also, no lynch is ever truly blind, and you don't have usable information until you see the flips from lynches.
The Living:

Matt Vartoogian -- Weapon: Unarmed -- "This isn't a game. This is evil." -- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
Cassandra Black -- Weapon: Kama -- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
Virgil Jefferson-Davis -- Weapon: Saiga-12 -- "Ave Imperator, morituri te salutant." -- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11
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BROseidon
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Aura Master Fox
Sep 30 2013, 07:49 PM
Okay, I would like to point out that we shouldn't immediately target people just because they are good at Mafia, at least not without reasonable suspicion. Yes, MW and Slam are incredibly good at the game, but that doesn't automatically make them Mafia. Being too quick to lynch is almost never a good thing.
But can you target someone for a reason ever?

Also, if nobody is going to join me putting votes on Grim, I'll vote for Skraal. His Iso is lulz bad.

OH FUCK A TERM I FORGOT:

Iso: Short for "Isolation." Refers to reading a person's posts in isolation from everyone else's.
The Living:

Matt Vartoogian -- Weapon: Unarmed -- "This isn't a game. This is evil." -- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
Cassandra Black -- Weapon: Kama -- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
Virgil Jefferson-Davis -- Weapon: Saiga-12 -- "Ave Imperator, morituri te salutant." -- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11
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Un-Persona
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I was really not looking forward to PR's after last time :c.

Quote:
 
Oh yes, that 6-month old pre-MS meta of mine is so valuable...

Also, if I'm not worth your immediate attention, what is? It's not like you're multitasking 2-3 conversations right now.


Oh fuck, has it been six months. That's unholy. Anyway, on mportant matters.

For as to what is important, to me, it's only Zab, and that's more curiosity for his reasoning then anything. I've convinced myself that everyone acting so aggressively has been just really depraved, I'm suspecting Jester on Skraal's part, and Aura is doing his usual thing of being cautious in the early stages.

Nothing else has really caught my eye, as those things are fairly ordinary.
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Emprexx Plush
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Unvote: Bro

We're apparently going serious face now and I don't want to get caught up in a band-wagon.

I could go on and on about how aggression doesn't really fit the meta here well from atop a sufficiently massive mountain of hypocrisy, but theory-crafting is really best left for post-game. So instead, I'm going to add my voice to the concerns about Skraal's weird fixation with Slam. This seems like it could be some kind of weird lyncher gambit, or a fairly successful fool gambit. Either way, it's not really productive. I don't see any reason to say she's scum for it out and out, but it is really odd, and I'd like to see Skraal explain it a little better. The thing is, her posts have been pretty surreal from the start, like this:

Quote:
 
I suppose you'll just have to loosen up, because truth doesn't exist in mafia. Reality is nothing but the consensus of the majority.


I don't even know where to go with this. At the least, I'm going to put in a recommendation that we watch what she says pretty closely. This just screams that something is out of the ordinary to me.
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Zabriel
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Un-Persona. It was interesting for reasons that I've already stated. I'm not sure what more you expect right now.
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Zabriel
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As to why I didn't elaborate in the initial post, I felt like my post was sufficient to convey my thoughts. Based on my experiences on the site and Grim's particular reasons, I'd have chosen to vote Slam if I were using that rationale for RVS.

My "defense" of Bro was just me stating the meta that I'm accustomed to. Some of us have played a lot of games on MafiaScum. We typically have longer game days and more early-game shenanigans. I felt like Un-Persona was placing a serious vote on Bro based on something that I didn't think was that big a deal or alignment indicative. Then Bro explained himself and I re-evaluated his vote based on his explanation.
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