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Debates and Discourse; AP English Class debate - all welcome to join!
Topic Started: Jun 10 2012, 10:57 PM (2,467 Views)
Little Boy
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((I started us off with a topic, but you're all welcome to change it as the topic goes on!)

Mike was in a good mood, despite everything. He was sitting at the edge of his seat, his right leg shaking with anticipation. It had been awhile since a good debate had started up in Mr. Collins' English class and he was ready to go. It was taking all his willpower to avoid bursting out and interrupting the other boy. Oh God was it ever hard. Especially when Mike disagreed so adamantly, he was finding it hard to stop himself from taking personal potshots at the kid. Peter, or something, (Mike hadn't paid much attention to him before today) was a greasy boy with black hair. He was a grade below, but he'd been allowed to take AP English through some special reasoning- apparently, "Peter" was something of a prodigy.

Hard to agree with their assessment, considering he's making a complete ass out of himself...

On his otherwise empty desk was a badly beaten copy of Fahrenheit 451, Mike's pencil keeping it open and bookmarked. Mike glanced down at it, wincing as Peter made a particularly stupid remark.

"In a way, Montag is very susceptible to the pressure of Professor Faber. The ruin of his life is brought on by this rebellious influence. While it may be a dull life, one could argue that Montag was better off remaining with the Fire Department. Knowledge was the ruin of him in the end. I would argue that If our end goal is to create a society of pure happiness, would not the elimination of dissent, and the elimination of books with it, be just?"

Oh boy, did Mike want to punch the kid. Not only was the argument weak, (and borderline fascist, which earned the kid a special place in Mike's "Big Book of Things to Stab") but Peter knew it. The kid was arguing stupid ideas for the sake of it, trying to convince Mr. Collins' he was intelligent by thinking "outside the box". Mike had met his kind before- the idiots who would try to write a paper on why Hitler was in the right, just so they could be different and interesting and people would think they were special.

Mike rolled his eyes.

Stop talking already, you pretentious bastard.

Thankfully, the boy stopped before Mike started slamming his head against the desk. As soon as the boy had sat down, Mr. Collins' leaning against his desk at the front of the room, nodded his head and looking around.

"Interesting perspective. Thank you Colin."

Oh. So he's Colin. Then who the fuck is Peter!?

Mike frowned for a moment, looking confused. But there was little time for that. Mr. Collins' looked his way, gesturing with his hand. "It looks like our resident Anarchist would like to give his thoughts." Mr. Collins' said, with the slightest bit of a grin. Mike wasn't naive enough to believe that his teacher held any belief in his political theories- but Mr. Collins' had a thing for debate and discourse, a trait they shared in common. If only for that, Mike counted him as one of his favorite teachers at Aurora High.

"Okay, well." Mike said, pausing slightly to get his thoughts in order. "To put it bluntly, I disagree with everything you said."

If we're going to play a game of extremes, let's see how the other side fairs.

"I would argue that a society based on primal pleasure over knowledge, innovation and art is a society needing to be destroyed. By giving into the fear of radicalism and the fear of knowledge, the society in Fahrenheit 451 doomed itself to both radicalism and ignorance. Like, how can you possibly seek to justify burning a woman alive in her home, because she simply wanted to read? This isn't a society of happiness. This is a society of people being controlled, told they should be happy through sanctioned outlets. As terrible as it is to see the loss of life at the end of the book, it is more of a release for the citizens of the city than anything else. They were slaves in nearly every sense. Their lives were devoid of culture, art, philosophy, free will and thought, the very things that make us human. A life of happiness over thinking is no life. You're pretty much just an animal. Censorship, fear of radicalism and the pursuit of happiness over truth, that is what led to the death of everyone in this city. Faber doesn't kill everyone in the city, they end up killing themselves."

"We can't make a perfect society. We can't be perfect people. But personally, I'd rather die fighting than oppress to make an unthinking majority happy. Our goal in life isn't to achieve like... a blanket of happiness to spread over everyone. It's for everyone to find their own individual way of being happy and fulfilled, and use that to help others do the same... Like an anarchist commune."

Fuck. I was doing so well.

Every debate. Every God damn debate. It always came back to Anarchism. Mike could feel people sighing.

Well, no one was about to agree with Mike. But I doubt anyone is about to agree with me either. Especially since I just advocated the death of the ignorant masses. Ack, that wasn't what I meant at all... Oh, I am such a sick bastard when I'm trying to prove a point...
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(Jessica Murphy continued from It's Cold Out Here)

Jessica didn't agree with Colin much at all. Supporting a government that kills people with no trial and tried to limit knowledge wasn't one she could support. Did no one remember Nazi Germany? They were very interested in burning books. Course, she would need more reasoning than "that's like Nazis!" to make an argument sound good.

Not to mention the bombing of the city at the end. If that was Montag's fault, then obviously 9/11 happened because New Yorkers were jerks. Or at least, that was the stereotype. Point being, that both ideas were ridiculous, or at least, anyone who followed that idea wasn't in their right mind.

Then Mike, anarchist dude, decided to voice his opinion. Interestingly enough, she agreed with him most of the way. There was a problem though, the anarchist commune part. She couldn't get behind that at all.

She raised her hand before starting her rebuttal.

"The problem with that, Mike, is that, like, we still have to keep the world running, y'know? I mean, someone has to keep things running instead of playing video games, or reading, or whatever. Plus, like, if no one does stuff that needs to be done that knowledge can't get spread. Like, if uhh, no one wanted to work in the power plant, would the power just stay off? There has to be someone doing the not so fun part of life so that other people can do the spreading knowledge and happiness part. Yeah."

She thought she had made her point pretty well. Course there were flaws in every system, but anarchism would be, well, anarchy. And that would be bad, very bad.
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kervin555
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(Bradley Edwards - Pregame Start)

Bradley found the whole debate rather boring, if he was to be completely honest. He was leaning forward in his seat, arms on the table, trying to pay attention to what was happening around him. Bradley suppressed a yawn and started skimming through his notes on Fahrenheit 451 to try to keep himself awake. He had to maintain an air of professionalism after all. The last few days hadn't been particularly kind to him, what with trying to repair some old broken relationships over some mistakes he'd made. Mistakes that Bradley was sure everyone was aware of.

Anyway, that kid Colin was speaking his piece. Bradley didn't like him and he was absolutely sure that he had made some disparaging remarks toward the boy in the past, something that Bradley wasn't particularly proud of.

Not that it wasn't understandable considering his incredibly fascist opinions. No, wait wait, back up. That line of thinking is exactly why you feel like such a prick, remember?

Of course, Bradley couldn't help but disagree with what Colin was saying. Colin was completely incorrect. The support of a government which limited knowledge and its pursuit? Unimaginable. If there was something to be preserved in the world, it was knowledge. Ignorance is not bliss, regardless of what people like Colin might say.

Bradley was about to retort, to call Colin out on his unfounded opinions. Instead, he kept his mouth shut. He had to keep that whole superiority-complex business under control, anyway. Bradley's eyes drifted around the room to see if anyone else was feeling the way he felt about the whole situation, eventually resting on Mikko "Mike" Korhonen who was looking like he was about to explode. He was a weird fellow, but smart so Bradley had to give him props for that. His political views, however, weren't exactly in-line with Bradley's.

Sure enough, Mike started his rebuttal. Bradley found himself nodding along to what Mike was saying. It made sense and it reflected views not dissimilar from his own. Then, the anarchist commune comment.

Bradley couldn't help but give a sigh. Mike always had to say something about his political views. Bradley had to question whether it was necessary to really do that, and just why he did it in the first place. Was it because he needed some validation for his political views? Or was it because he wanted to convince everyone that being an anarchist-communist wasn't such a bad thing?

Jessica Murphy retorted to the comment, talking about how the world needs workers in order to run. Once again, Bradley found himself nodding along, even if Jessica said the whole thing a little too awkwardly.

Bradley raised his hand. "I agree with Jessica," Bradley stated. "The world needs its workers to run. If, for example, no one was forced to work in order to gain a wage, how many people do you think would actually work? Not to turn this into a discussion against communism, which it is turning out to be, but the answer is 'not very many'." Bradley paused, somewhat for effect, but mostly to recall a specific quote. "And in the words of Lawrence of Arabia, 'The trick, William Potter, is not minding that it hurts.' Sure it might hurt to work, but if you don't, then the world will refuse to run and then where will we be?."

Bradley, of course, had no clue whether anything he just said made any sense. His habit of pulling quotes out of his ass (not to mention out of context) and his tendency to ramble certainly hampered his ability to maintain a proper debate, but he hoped that his point got through. After all, he was just supplanting Jessica's opinion, wasn't he? He just hoped Mike wouldn't take offense, since Bradley had observed that Mike wasn't always the most forgiving of people who disagreed with him.

Hah. We aren't really so different then, are we, Mr. Korhonen?
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Little Boy
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"The world needs its workers to run. If, for example, no one was forced to work in order to gain a wage, how many people do you think would actually work? Not to turn this into a discussion against communism, which it is turning out to be, but the answer is 'not very many'."

Ah. This was quickly becoming a lot more interesting. Mike shifted in his chair to regard Bradley and Jessica. Despite their differences, Mike had an odd quirky kind of respect for Brad. The kid had an annoying as hell habit of pulling unrelated quotes out of nowhere, but going after him for that was stupid and pointless, especially when he raised a good point.

Well, who exactly would work for a wage came down to who was fundamentally moral and good. And that brought them into a whole knew kind of debate, about the innate goodness of man and yadda yadda... Frankly, convincing the entire class that man was inherently good was easier said than done. Mike tapped his fingers on the table for a moment in thought before responding.

"Well let's put it this way. Let's say we abolished all laws overnight. There's no legal authority telling you "work at McDonalds", "go to school". If you murder someone, there is no one to catch them."

Mike paused for a second, to let the notion sink in. Just when he saw a few people looking like they were ready to respond, he quickly snapped back to life.

"Except there is. There is no law to prevent murder, but will you go and murder someone? Will that somehow stop others from condemning your act? And where does it say that Anarchy requires absolutely no law anyway? Anarchy doesn't mean no rules barred, it means no kings. By abolishing law we'd free ourselves from unjust laws only. Those that are required to run and protect the community will stay constant, as they have always. Laws to protect the innocent from the insane or, uh, mentally disturbed for example, those would stay consistent. And even I would never dream against arguing against those rules."

Oh, that was good. It was rare he could spit out his words this fluently and understandably. Mike pressed his point, leaning forward in his chair, excited.

"Think about it. There's no one to tell you not to go to school. So do you stay at home and learn no skills? If the law said we didn't have to go to school, I'd still go to school. I want to learn and think. Some people would rather learn a trade, to each their own. What we'd eliminate would be the unnecessary bureaucratic rules that require us to teach, learn and think in a specific way that can't be adapted to everyone."

He turned to Jessica, giving the girl a smile. "Yeah, I agree, I could probably spend a good few days just sitting around reading books or playing games or something like that. But just the fact that you thought of that would insure it would never happen. The guy working at the power plant, he realizes that without him the whole town goes dark. Would he just abandon his post? Would he read books in the dark and curse himself for not bothering to keep the power plant running?"

"Like... basically. What I'm saying. Is that people are smart. They recognize that they need to work together to survive. But people are dynamic. People can't be confined by laws and bullied into a way of thinking. The murderers out there are still going to murder people, because the law doesn't prevent that. All the law does is restrict people, like we see in Fahrenheit. That's why I'm saying that in the end, what happened was a happy ending. Guy has learned to think for himself, and Faber doesn't need to like, lead Guy through his walkie-talkie because there is no more law to fight. They're free to think."

Mike eased back slightly in his chair, feeling rather content with himself. Jessica and Brad were smart. In a way, he was glad they'd both come at him. Their questions had been valid, and Mike had done a pretty damn good job of answering them. Not to be narcissistic.

Heh. I almost sound like I have it all figured out. Ah well. I got the perfect opportunity to rant about Anarchism. Man, I'm in a lot of classes with some of these people. They must be getting tired of me.
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Jessica could tell Bradley had the right idea. Well duh, they were in agreement. But he realized that people just couldn't sit around and do nothing because they chose to. Like she said, someone had to keep society running, even if they didn't really want to.

Then Mike joined in again, noting arguments about how people would take care of things anyway. Plus, he forgot one important thing, anarchy wouldn't be permanent, right?

"But, like. Y'know, that wouldn't last forever, anarchy. Because people like having an order to their lives, and someone will offer to give it. So, like it or not, eventually someone would get control and make rules. Anarchy is a temporary stage before something else comes, y'see?"
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kervin555
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Ohohohoho. This was certainly getting interesting. Bradley started drumming his fingers as Mike spoke, careful to pay attention to everything he said. Mike had started talking about anarchy and everything that came with it. It all sounded well and good and reasonable and everything, but there seemed to be some things that Mike was forgetting. Jessica pointed out one of them, the need for order, but Bradley thought there might be a bigger one.

"Right," Bradley said. "Except that not everyone is entirely responsible, nor are they entirely good. I'm glad to see that you're an optimist about people doing the right thing, but the truth is that there are probably more irresponsible people than there are responsible ones, especially in a place like America. I mean, you can't always count on the guy in the power plant to always act the way you said."

Bradley paused and sat forward in his seat, thinking about where to go with this.

"The law exists so that we can protect ourselves from ourselves," Bradley said. "Switching to anarchism now is going to cause just that, anarchy. Chaos at its finest. We can probably expect to see mass looting, violence, gangs erupting, things like that. And who'll be there to stop them at that point? The law enforcement that doesn't exist anymore? And even if they do turn into vigilantes, they'll end up resorting to the methods that the gangs will use."

Bradley mentally sighed in relief. He was getting through this without insulting anyone. This discussion was getting him really riled up. Maybe the whole debate wasn't turning boring after all.

"Call me a cynic," Bradley said, pausing for a second to see if anyone actually would. "But I'm having a hard time balancing the benefits over the consequences. Really, there's too much at stake to risk it. I mean, yeah, you've got the whole humans-join-together-to-survive thing going, but that just proves that people will band together for their own benefit, and not for others' benefit. I know this probably seems like a really tired arguement, but I honestly don't think anarchism will work until we can definitely prove that people won't act selfishly."
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Threads: Holding Out For A Hero > Inexplicable > Rebel Without a Clue > While Rome Burns > Far From Home > Breaking Point > Swan Song > Still Red > Last of the Alderbrooks
Virtua-SOTF - M16: Patrick Reynolds - The Ingenuine - "Um, I think we're lost."
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SOTF V5 - Bradley Edwards - The Spare - "Call me a cynic..."
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Little Boy
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Mike was practically bouncing out of his seat, ready to respond. He didn't even bother to raise his hand. Like a hunter, cornering his prey, Mike began to speak, his voice faster than normal and full of enthusiasm.

"Well, Jessica-"

That was all he managed to get out.Mr. Collins raised his hand then, and Mike's well-rehearsed words stumbled to an abrupt and anticlimactic halt. Easing himself up from his casual lean against his desk, Mr. Collins gave Mike a pleasant smile.

"If I may," he began. "Not looking to squash any debate and conversation here- but we seem to have deviated from our original point of reference. Again."

Mike flinched every so slightly. Oh gee. I wonder how that happened?

"As passionate as this debate is, on both sides, I don't think Bradbury intended his novel to be an examination of anarcho-communism."

"Well... yes." Mike said sheepishly, rubbing at his arm as he lounged back in his seat. He could swear that someone was snickering at the back of the class. Mike grabbed his book up off the table and flipped through it casually as Mr. Collins readdressed the class.

"Let's switch gears here." Collins began. "Fahrenheit is notable not just for themes of censorship- there is a hefty does of religious imagery too. Anyone notice anything?"

The class was silent for a moment. Collins continued, unperturbed.

"Faber describes Montag in one chapter as the fire to his water; saying that the two together will create wine. Now... why is this? Any comments?"
V5
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Solitair
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((Rose Matheson continued from Dinner Date))

Normally Rose wouldn’t give all that much effort into paying attention during English class. The books she found assigned were usually dry, dull wastes of time that were either filled with flowery Elizabethan speech in weird rhyme schemes or about dreary romances between stuffy nobles she couldn’t begin to care about. But this time was different. For the first time in months, Rose found something different, something she could get interested in. Her copy of Fahrenheit 451 went with her everywhere she went, and she pulled it out whenever she wasn’t on her feet and running.

No doubt her parents would be thrilled to find that she’d taken genuine interest in her studies. All they ever did these days was worry about what Rose would do if her athletic aspirations didn’t pan out. The night before, she’d locked herself in her room with the book until she’d fallen asleep, just to get away from their nagging about her grades in other classes. She wasn’t failing in school at all. She was actually doing pretty damn well as far as she was concerned. When would they leave her alone about that shit?

At least nobody nagged her in class. At the start of the debate, she was just thumbing through her copy of the book, which was starting to look a bit dog-eared from how she treated it. That one asshole at the start made her cringe, playing devil’s advocate like he did. At least, she really hoped that was the case. He didn’t really believe what he was saying, did he? Yeah, Montag gave up a life of comfort and that sucked, but Rose knew her parents would raise hell if she ever gave up learning and expanding her mind and so on and so on and so on. That would go right back around to making it uncomfortable again. Honestly, it’s not like she disagreed, but damned if she’d admit that to her faces.

Thanks to that one boy’s train of thought other people rushed to contradict him and sidetrack it into politics and anarchy. Rose hated politics. What more needed to be understood besides people getting into pissing contests about the right way to do things and insisting that they knew best? She took the opportunity to read ahead until the teacher finally put that crap to sleep. He came up with a question that Rose could actually answer, and so she shot her hand in the air and waved it around until she was called on.

“Yes, Rose?” Mr. Collins asked.

She leaned back in her desk and folded her hands. “Okay, so the fire and water thing is kind of a reference to their characters. Obviously Montag is fire because he burns stuff, but there’s also the fact that he gets sloppy and clumsy in how he rebels against the man, not that Faber really knows that at the time. See, fire spreads and burns all it can unless some kind of outside force controls it. It doesn’t really control itself. Faber’s water because he doesn’t do anything himself, he’s too much of a coward, and water just rolls downhill with no resistance when left on its own. It’ll affect stuff too, but it’s not drastic like fire.

“As for the making wine thing, it’s a Bible reference. So… I guess Faber’s hoping for a miracle or something.” Rose pulled up her desk again and looked around the room. That was as far as she got before her words caught up with her thoughts. Debate wasn’t her strong suit.
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BROseidon
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(Virgil Jefferson-Davis–>Pregame Start)

Virgil sat at his desk in the back of the room, only half paying attention while English class went on around him. Sure, Virgil had enjoyed Fahrenheit 451, but not as much as he enjoyed the text that he was reading under his desk.

At Pallas magnis emittit uiribus hastam
uaginaque caua fulgentem deripit ensem.

It was sort of funny that Virgil had never finished reading the great text of the man after whom he was named. He had started reading different authors, though, knowing that he would read The Aeneid for school before reading other, equally interesting authors. Virgil was excited; he was at the climax of the fight between Turnus and Pallas. Given that Turnus was the main antagonist at this stage of the epic, Virgil could guess how it would end. Nevertheless, Virgil pressed on, lingering on each word.

Or he was, until Colin spoke. The snotty junior said some things that greatly offended his sensibilities. Virgil was a jock through and through, but not one entirely without a brain. Given that reading was the only cerebral pursuit from which he derived any pleased, Colin's suggestion that eliminating literature for the sake of some greater good was a clearly ludicrous assertion.

Before Virgil could speak up, Mike went on one of his anarcho-communist ravings. Again. The kid was, in every way imaginable, the opposite to Virgil. He respected the kid for sticking to his guns, but scoffed at the guns that he held. Nevertheless, Virgil found himself agreeing with everything that he said until he brought in anarcho-communism, which could have very easily been left out of the whole thing.

A few other kids spoke up in protest to that coda to Mike's argument, and Virgil went back to reading his Latin. That is, until Rose Matheson gave an interesting point about the fire/water metaphor, but she really didn't finish her thought very well. Virgil raised his hand in response, since he was now vaguely interested in the discussion at hand.

"Virgil?" Mr. Collins asked.

"While I like Rose's analysis, I don't really think she is taking it as far as it could go. I think that it's fairly important to note that fire and water are typically seen as intrinsically opposed to one another. Given that the two work together throughout the book, I think that this antithesis is best seen as a result of their career paths. The creation of wine is an interesting place to take the metaphor. While it does add in a religious context, I don't really think that it has to do with waiting for a miracle. Instead, perhaps we can take it to mean that the two of them can work together to create the miracle. Faber's water, his knowledge and understand of the importance of literature, combined with Montag's fire, his burning desire to do what's good, combine to create their miracle."

Let's see where this discussion goes now
Edited by BROseidon, Sep 7 2012, 06:43 PM.
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Jessica wasn't the best with biblical references. Her parents weren't too focused on teaching her about the good book. What the others had said seemed to make sense though, as far as she could tell. Faber and Montag really couldn't have gotten anything done without the other. That much was obvious, but whether it was a miracle or not she couldn't tell.

As far as she could tell the world of 451 wasn't very spiritual, so the characters weren't as likely to point out what allusions meant. She had to do that on her own and it was slow going with the biblical ones.

So she'd stay quiet for this part. She'd contributed and there was sure to be another occasion for her to put her opinion in.
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kervin555
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Bradley sat back in his seat, content with his contributions to the discussion, even if he somewhat helped derail it. Mr. Collins launched another topic, this time religious symbolism. Bradley decided to leave this topic be for the time being, as he couldn't recall anything from his notes about any symbolism regarding religion. In fact, he couldn't recall the topic crossing his mind at all while he read the book.

Bradley laid low for now. He was happy enough listening to what Virgil and Rose were saying, and not sticking his nose in something he knew that he wouldn't contribute much to. He wasn't much of a debater anyway and his rambling wouldn't help any when faced with a subject like this.

He sat back in his seat further and tried to pay as much attention as he could.
Virtua-SOTF - F05: Renee Murphy - The Broken Bird - "Until we find out, you're going to need me."
Threads: Holding Out For A Hero > Inexplicable > Rebel Without a Clue > While Rome Burns > Far From Home > Breaking Point > Swan Song > Still Red > Last of the Alderbrooks
Virtua-SOTF - M16: Patrick Reynolds - The Ingenuine - "Um, I think we're lost."
Threads: The Funniest Joke in the World > I Can Hear the Bells > From Where You're Kneeling
SOTF V5 - Bradley Edwards - The Spare - "Call me a cynic..."
Pregame Threads: Debates and Discourse
Meanwhile Threads: Above it All
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((Camilla "Cammy" Davidson: Pregame Start))

Oh how she despised English. She couldn't understand how people could be so into things like books and essays. For her, she vastly preferred actually doing fun stuff, like running or partying. But now was not the time to try to think about stuff like that. Now was the time to focus on English, something she wish she didn't have to do. Though she did read the book, she found it to be dismal. Right now she was trying to recollect her knowledge of said book as the other students started to debate on it.

She was only half-listening on the conversation around her, but she did recognize the voice of that junior kid, Clyde or something like that. Due to being a junior, she never had talked to him, nor did she have any reason to. She made her goal to know every single person in her year and the kid was certainly not from her year. For some reason, it really irked her that this Clyde person, who she just found was actually Colin, was allowed to be in the senior class. Was he really that smart? Then again, she should try to be nice to him, if only to be polite.

It was then that Mike started to argue against Colin. At first, she was impressed with what he had to say. However, she knew in her mind that whatever he said would always lead back to the same topic he always loved to talk about. Of course, as soon as he went into Anarcho-Communist ravings that he was oh so famous for, Cammy couldn't help but let loose a little sigh of disappointment. He was doing so well, but of course it had to happen sooner or later. Not that she minded too much. Part of her enjoyed listening to his opinions about what the world should be like. Then again, he did it so often that it just became more annoying to listen to.

It was then that two other classmates began to argue against him. It was at this point that her mind started to fizz a little and she soon started to play with her pencil with her hands, which were still hidden within her hoodie. Instead of revealing her hands however, Cammy instead tried to grab hold of the pencil using two of her fingers that were still within her hoodie. This proved to be a challenging, yet fun distraction that managed to last her through the entire debate the three students had. After that was over, Mr. Collins mentioned the word "Religion."

At this point, Cammy dropped her pencil and became much more interested in the conversation. This was perfect! This was her chance to prove her knowledge. Though she wasn't religious at all, her parents still forced her to study the bible when she was a little child. This caused her to have good knowledge of Christianity at least, and she very much hoped that this topic would come up.

She listened to both Rose and Virgil's comments about the quote and was impressed with what Virgil had to say, trying to come up with something different from what they had to offer. An idea came to her at Virgil's mention of creating a miracle. Cammy's hand shot up into the air as she tried to attract the English teacher's attention.

"Yes Camilla?" Mr Collins asked, Cammy cringing a little inside as she heard her actual name being said.

"Though Virgil and Rose both had a very interesting look at what the symbolism behind the water turning to wine meant, I would like to approach it in a different way." Cammy said confidently, calming herself down as she tried to retrieve the right information from her brain.

"The reference in question, John 2 verses 1-11, feature Jesus turning water to wine, something which everyone is familiar with. We can all agree that this is a miracle in essence. What is interesting to note however is that this was the first miracle that Jesus did and it was the beginning of many miracles to come. What Virgil said about the two of them "creating a miracle" can be seen as this. However, if we take into consideration that the turning of water to wine was the first miracle that Jesus did, the description could be in fact referring to the start of something new, or a beginning for them both. Throughout the book, Montag was influenced by Clarisee to question his beliefs and his interaction with Faber can be considered a new beginning for him as Faber teaches him the importance of literature which set the course for the rest of the book. Meanwhile, Faber was consumed by cowardice and had spent years regretting not defending books when he realized they were banning them. It is through his interactions with Montag that Faber is finally able to do something and by teaching Montag the importance of literature, he is able to overcome his cowardice to an extent and finally take action against the banning of books. For both characters, their interactions with each other was the creating, or beginning, of change in their lives. The fact that a reference to Jesus' first miracle is made could be a symbol of this beginning which both characters go through, hence why they are mentioned as such."

Cammy was pretty impressed with what she had came up with. Though she didn't make any reference to the nature of water and fire, she felt that the point she made did have some meaning and could be seen as a correct interpretation in some respects. Now Cammy was hoping that someone wouldn't completely destroy it. She kept her fingers crossed, her hoodie hiding said fingers from the rest of the world. She now wondered what the rest of the class was going to say in response to that.
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simpleinsanity
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((Cyrus White: Pregame Start))

Cyrus sighs, leaning on his left elbow as his gloved hand cradled the uncaring expression on his face. Despite his bored expression, he had been paying close attention to every word being said, especially once religion had been mentioned. He had hoped it wouldn't come to this, hoped that it would stay stuck at Mike's idiotic rants about allowing the world to fall apart.

Unfortunately, it did. He raised his hand rather slowly, and the Camilla girl was picked first. He listened carefully and figured she had made some good points, but still pulled a glove off and raised his hand afterward. She wouldn't change his mind. Mr. Collins called on him. "Cyrus?" His expression didn't change at all.

"While I would agree with Camilla if this were a different book, anyone who has read this book carefully enough would agree that Ray Bradbury tried his best to stuff as many religious references that he could in under 200 pages. After all, if you read the ending you see that Montag tries to remember biblical passages because he considers them appropriate for the situation. He doesn't believe in any of it, he just thinks that it's 'deep'. Anyone who has read this would know that Bradbury considers the book a metaphor for the fact that television and radio is taking over our lives instead of what he considers a more 'pure' alternative, literature. Obviously, this book is the ranting of a man who hates technology, and nothing more."

Upon finishing, he put the glove back on his hand and waited for a response.
Edited by simpleinsanity, Jul 19 2012, 04:14 PM.
V5: Cyrus White
Weapon: Ice Axe
Pregame: Debates and Discourse (Main Pregame), Nox Mirabilis (Prom), Sin and Sacred Light (Before Prom)
Game: One, Two, and Three.
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Solitair
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Where modesty's ill manners, 'tis but fit that impudence and malice pass for wit.
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Rose slumped back in her seat, not expecting that she would contribute to the discussion any more than she already had. She was no good at this debating thing and people were already starting to outclass her in rhetoric. So she just opened the book again and started reading at a more leisurely pace. Only half of her mind was focused on the book, since everyone was still supposed to be talking, after all. How stupid would she look if she didn’t know what everyone else was saying at the end of class?

It was out of a desire to stay in the loop that she heard Cyrus’s argument, and from then on realized that she did in fact have more to add now that the topic had moved off of religion. “Really?” she asked Cyrus. “This is the first I’ve heard of it.”

“Raise your hand please, Rose,” the teacher said. Rose shot her hand into the air and held it there for a few seconds until the teacher deigned to call on her.

“Okay. Like I was saying, I didn’t get that impression reading the book and neither did any of the people I talked to. I guess now that you mention it Bradbury does only give good examples of books and bad examples of TV in the story, so if that was his point all along I’m kinda thankful he didn’t make it that obvious. But that’s not the only thing at play here. The book’s also about embracing introspection and not just having fun all the time. Remember when Montag’s wife read that poem and she didn’t know how to react to all those deep feelings? Just because it’s examined through different mediums doesn’t make it less true or anything.

“I’m also seeing some stuff about not letting us get too wrapped up in endless entertainment and allowing at least the option of deeper thought than that.” Wait, was she just repeating her earlier point? Rose didn’t really know, but it made her pause. “So yeah, it’s not just an anti-technology rant.” She leaned back in her chair and thought about that weak finish, her second one in as many chances she had to speak. She definitely wasn’t suited for this.
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Turning Pages: Read some books along with me, why don't you?

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V5:
Arthur Wells: The Artist ... ... ... ... ?
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BROseidon
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The conversation had gone to a topic of technology and how Bradbury portrayed it relative to literature in his work. Virgil was still a bit interested in the conversation, since he had always been one to enjoy a good piece of literature over any piece of virtual media. There was something really satisfying about the simple act of turning a page. Virgil raised his hand, it was his turn to get back into the conversation.

"Yes, Virgil," Mr. Collins said.

"While I'd personally like to think that what Cyrus said is true, and as much as this book does maintain some anti-technological themes, to portray Bradbury as an author only capable of relating a single theme in a novel is, well, selling him completely short. Like, there are other themes in this book, like the questions of authority that permeate many of the interactions throughout the novel."

Virgil realized that, as he said this, he had completely ignored what Rose had said, and that he should probably address that quickly.

"Um, with respect to what Rose said, I do think that the themes of introspection do tie into the anti-technological themes. Like, with the poem example, Bradbury seems to be trying to say that TV discourages introspection, and that literature encourages it. I would argue that that is an explicitly anti-television perspective. I think that what both said holds some weight, but needs to be looked at in the greater context of the entire novel."
The Living:

Matt Vartoogian -- Weapon: Unarmed -- "This isn't a game. This is evil." -- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
Cassandra Black -- Weapon: Kama -- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
Virgil Jefferson-Davis -- Weapon: Saiga-12 -- "Ave Imperator, morituri te salutant." -- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11
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