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Topic Started: Jan 21 2007, 09:55 AM (18,194 Views)
Un-Persona
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Accident. I changed it on the death order, because it was just too removed and required several jumps to come up with her having directly killed him. She fell into him, but since there was no intent, and no direct action, only passive stuff, it's not really a kill.


I would like to disagree. I feel Cassidy should still be listed as the killer, passive action or not. Would I be wrong in guessing that, due to some accidental herk-jerk motion or third party, Student A accidentally shot Student B and then B died as a result of that, and A would be listed as B's killer? There was no intent or direct action, but I'm sure that student would certainly be listed as a killer.

Or you could say the gun killed B. Probably not what a terrorist would say, however. If Cassidy had accidentally chopped David's head with a halberd, she would surely be listed.

Also, your example is a bit different that Cassidy's case. Her arm shove was the cause of David's death, so she was a lot more directly involved. I would agree, if say, she knocked over some boxes and those boxes crushed David. But that's not the case. Reminds me of a Brady bunch quote

"I didn't break the vase, the floor did."

I won't change it, but that's my opinion.

Also, what I came here for: Did KK slit Kelly's neck? That's what it says on the wiki, but reading the post, I would say she stabbed at it.
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From Nuggets post: She hit him, he hit the balcony, and they both heard the splitting of old wood. Cassidy's hands were against David's chest, her feet still on the edge of the balcony. Gymnastic reflexes kicked in, survival instinct turned on, and the logic of physics came to mind.

Cassidy's arms extended as she pushed herself back.

From Biki post: However, the railing could only take so much force of friendship and broke, and David fell.


The force being Cassidy. To me, it seems as though Cassiy had already pushed David with her body, and then they both fell. So Cassidy still had to touch David and break the railing. The extra arm shove only added to David's death.

I feel like Nuggets and Biki making the say on this would be better, but there it is.

EDIT: NINJA'D.
Edited by Un-Persona, Jun 25 2013, 02:38 PM.
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I may be getting where you're at, but some things need further clarification.

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The issue here is the physics. Cassidy didn't push David until she had to push off him to survive; that means that both were already falling off, and that, with no action taken, the only difference would have been two deaths instead of one. If it was any other situation, then pushing off of David would not have caused him to fall. At that point, Cassidy's actions had no effect on whether he lived or died, so only the initial tripping contributed to his death.


This is all true. I'm not sure how it lessens anything when we say that Cassidy being the direct cause of David's death.

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The reason I don't think that would be the case here is due to Brock in V4. For those who aren't familiar with the situation, Brock was tied up, with a shotgun stuck in his mouth, so that the only thing he could do was pull the trigger, which he then did. It was a situation in which one person very clearly set him up to die, performed every action short of actually pulling the trigger, yet was not named or credited on that technicality ("Brock Mason finally found a gun that he could operate... although too bad for him it was pointing in the wrong direction.). In this case, as I mentioned above, it's the equivalent of bumping into someone who then falls over and hits their head on the edge of a desk. It just seems incredibly weird to credit it when it's no more direct than that. In the case of weapon misfires and misuse, there was some intent/action taken in the aiming of the weapon; if, on the other hand, someone fell over and the gun in their backpack went off, I don't think that would be credited.


But David's death is much more direct than those. It's not an elaborate trap set up by an outside force or a contrived accident, it's a situation of A pushing B off a high building.

That Brady Bunch quote still applies too. ;)

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As to the wiki reflecting the announcements, that's not the typical way it's been handled (see: Harry Tsai, who was announced as being killed by a booby trap when he was instead killed by one of his victims) and all the stuff regarding the V3 and V4 escapes. In general, I'm not a fan of having information on the Wiki that is not correct, because it's an OOC resource and compromising that for IC reasons is not a user-friendly choice.


So...I'm confused. Harry was killed by a booby trap, but one of his victims killed him, so that's why it's listed that way? If that's the case, then Cassidy should at least remained mention in David's evaluation and her own.

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It seems, to me, that the entire purpose behind the "Suicides/Accidents/Collar detonations:" section is to account for edge cases, which this fits into.


Right, this is definitely on the border on both sides, but I still believe it belongs on the kill side for my reasons stated.
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It's the stumbled-into that killed him. While that was the case, it's sorta like what I mentioned above re: tripping and bumping someone who then breaks their head on the floor or a desk. I feel like we'd never count that as a kill, but are looking at this differently because it fits a more traditional SOTF kill archetype (a fall from a high place). Take away the height and add a hard floor, and the whole situation feels very different.


In this current case or your head-floordesk example, I still feel a mention in the evaluations and death order should be considered. It helps explain how and why they died.

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If it was pushing, I'd be more inclined to agree, but the pushing expressly wasn't at fault; it was the falling-into that did it. And it was pretty direct; Sarah knocked Brock on the head, taped him up, and told him she was gonna kill him eventually with the trap, the question was how long it'd take. the answer was not very.


Right, falling into is what I meant ><. It's still the same, just replace the words. A fell into B making B fall off a high building.

Also, this never got answered: Did KK slit Kelly's neck? Reading the post, it seems like the neck was stabbed.

And Sarah is actually mentioned in Brock's evaluations, even though she didn't end up making up the final pull.

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Harry was killed by a victim. Danya lied because the victim had already been announced as dead. There was never any booby trap at all; Danya just didn't wanna let on that he'd lied. Thus, the wiki lists the truth, rather than the IC thing, as an informational resource (the death order notes the lie, but also gives the actual cause. All other cases of lying note the real causes).


Oh, well that's just confusing ><. But it does help me when I say Cassidy should at the very least be mentioned, and I still feel she should be listed with the kill.
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I like the idea of IC better. It'll stop people asking how the guy who explicitly died around noon is listed before the guy who died right as the announcements came on.

If we ever do change it, we should start with Micheal Whaley for Day 2, considering he died around early midnight. I'm not sure if there is anything we need to change for Day 1, but there might be a few things...

A poll perhaps.

(Also, I'm kinda mad that Yukiko and Megan will be listed as getting a kills while Cassidy won't. I know there was some intent behind the other two, but that's not something you can tell with IC and they were still accidents, and that's really the only way to differentiate them at all. I'd be fine if none of them got kills or all of them did, but I don't like this one bit. Brady Bunch quote ahoy.)
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