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Topic Started: Jan 21 2007, 09:55 AM (18,196 Views)
The Burned Handler
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Oct 28 2016, 12:06 PM
To clarify my position: I'd be okay with adding profiles for characters who actually had them to begin with, ie characters who were approved in pregame or final apps but not rostered for whatever reason. The snag that runs into is that I wouldn't want to establish a precedent that you have to write a profile to have a Meanwhile student, because I know staff wouldn't want to deal with that and it might discourage people from participating if the rigor of the approval process was something they had trouble with. On the other hand, using profiles that didn't make it through final apps could open the door for things being included that staff really wouldn't have passed had the profile been officially submitted.

I'm with Z here, and it was what I was trying to convey when I posted about what we discussed.

That said (and this isn't a response to the quoted post, just the discussion in general), I do still feel it's ridiculous to even have the section if we're going to treat it as not a valid part of things/something not worth featuring or highlighting. Sure, it's a new precedent to set, but I really feel we should be more inclusive than that.
MurderWeasel getting impatient
 
Hiya, jerk! Please don't post until edits have been completed, as doing so causes confusion/messes up the queue.


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18:48 Ruggawork I have faith in you!
18:48 Ruggawork and your ass!


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16:35 Kilmarnock Maybe Iktor?
16:35 Kilmarnock Maybe Toben.
16:35 Kilmarnock hard to tell until they make out with me.
16:35 *** mib_6brm7d is now known as Irene


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MurderWeasel
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Oct 27 2016, 08:16 PM
Alright, this has been a topic of debate lately so we'd like to get a good number of opinions: what are your thoughts on profiles or other information for pregame and/or Meanwhile-only characters on the wiki?

Precedent holds that characters who don't get officially put on the island roster don't get a profile on the wiki. The Meanwhile section and its corresponding page on the wiki for versions that it exists in (so far just V5 and V6, but one can reasonably assume it will be there for future versions) lists characters who may have pregame profiles but no official ones, and typically doesn't include any sort of links to character pages for them.

Does anyone feel that pages for pregame/Meanwhile-only characters are something that would be useful and necessary?
My take: I have no problems with the profiles being on the wiki, but also don't think they need to be. If a handler wants to put one up, I see no harm in it, so long as it went through staff approval. We aren't limited in space on the wiki, and there's an awful lot of old stuff with significantly less value to the site that has persisted for years without causing notable problems. I come to our wiki from the context of having loved Wookieepedia, which can tell you the life story of the dude who serves Obi-wan a drink in A New Hope.

Yugi
 
I'd say that if we do choose to upload pregame profiles to the wiki we do it on an all or nothing basis. If we only do "important pregame characters" that'd cause spats over who constitutes as "important."

Personally, my bar is if someone cares enough to add it. I don't see any real reason to be all or nothing. Some things are more interesting to folks than others, and some people care more about what's on the wiki than others. In much the same way not every character has a completed mid-game eval, maybe not every minor pregame kid needs a page on the wiki yet some might merit it (or their handlers might want it). We don't need to get too horribly objective about it if we just don't deny anyone who passes a fairly simple threshold (say, having a post).

Deamon
 
Personally I believe that since the island is the main focus priority should go to that and only students that are fully rostered should get their own profile pages as they're the ones taking part.

I disagree here because the wiki isn't really about directing focus or giving priority--it's a reference toolbox for the SOTF world. If something's interesting, it might as well have a page. There's no real harm, as I see it, because the wiki isn't some physical space where clutter causes issues, and it's not like these pages are gonna be linked to a bunch of stuff anyways. The only real impact would be when you hit random page, and odds are that'll hit you some random kid who died in three posts anyways.

TBH
 
So why even have either pregame or meanwhile exist? I vaguely feel like if that's how we look at things there's not even a point having either of those.

Eh, I disagree here. I do think the island is the focus, but I think there's a bit of chicken/egg going on here. Most people are on SOTF to play the death game thing, and that's what we're really advertised as, thus it's the focus. Other stuff is also cool, just if it comes down to one or the otehr getting staff attention, say, it's gonna be island every single time because that's the main attraction. Some folks might like the side stuff better, or even be here just for it, and that's totally fine--it's still valid and interesting and important, just loses a tiebreak. Just my opinion, of course.

Slam
 
Not giving pregame/meanwhile only characters full profile pages and huge coverage on tvtropes is not the same thing as removing all mention of these things. It's instead avoiding pulling focus from the main action which is what the site's actually about and where the majority of the effort lies, by giving these things an appropriate proportion of wiki real estate.

I honestly don't think we're at any risk of Meanwhile taking over. For context, V6 Meanwhile has 44 posts. V6 itself has over 1,500. People come for the island, and I don't think that's gonna change because there are Meanwhile kids on the wiki. I don't think most people even use the wiki unless looking for info on a thing anyways, in which case it'd be Meanwhile leading them there rather than the other way. As to TVTropes, that's off-site, outside our purview for the most part, and edited by folks who may not even post here. I couldn't really care less what's getting put up there as long as it doesn't cast the site in an utterly abysmal light.

Slam
 
Our wikis and the tropes page are for summarising the characters who are regularly maintained and worked on through the game, which requires a fairly large amount of effort, and that’s why they get whole pages.

I don't really agree with this, but maybe I'm not getting something. I sorta view the purpose of the wiki as being to provide information about SOTF in more succinct fashion than reading the whole darn thing. We've got pages for dudes who wrote a single character in V1, and they don't cause any trouble. They're just not really relevant, and thus fade into obscurity--exactly what Meanwhile pages would do if they ended up being useless.

backslash
 
To clarify my position: I'd be okay with adding profiles for characters who actually had them to begin with, ie characters who were approved in pregame or final apps but not rostered for whatever reason. The snag that runs into is that I wouldn't want to establish a precedent that you have to write a profile to have a Meanwhile student, because I know staff wouldn't want to deal with that and it might discourage people from participating if the rigor of the approval process was something they had trouble with. On the other hand, using profiles that didn't make it through final apps could open the door for things being included that staff really wouldn't have passed had the profile been officially submitted.


Good points! That said, an item of note: one does not need a profile to have a wiki page. So, like, if a character matters enough to merit a page, but has no profile, there should just be enough stuff there to make the page not stupidly tiny anyways, so the lack of a profile shouldn't really be a huge deal.

Slam
 
To clarify, we asked that meanwhile only students undergo the same critique process as on-island characters specifically to avoid people putting in things that wouldn't fly in other profiles, so the precedent is already in place.

Not quite! It's half that, half to keep everyone and their dog from writing other kids in the kidnapped class. The impact of the game is diminished if suddenly, say, only half the class of Aurora was kidnapped and the other half was at home flossing their dog and missed the trip. This side matters way less with V6, though, as half the potential abductees were explicitly left behind due to having the trip on a different day.

So, my take: if something's important to someone and actually in the story (and regardless of relative focus/import, pregame and Meanwhile are part of the story), it doesn't hurt to have it on the wiki. It might not hurt to not have it on the wiki either, but we're not gonna run out of space any time soon and the wiki is totally full of weird and unimportant stuff anyways.
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The Burned Handler
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For whatever it's worth, I don't really think the unapproved characters should be on the wiki. It feels less archival and more like mocking people whose characters weren't up to scratch.

Replies on other stuff in your post later, Toben, because your post is huge. My basic standpoint is along the lines of yours or Z's for our wiki, and for tropes... well, who gives a shit? Just put whatever we want there and cut back if it gets out of hand. They have that whole "no such thing as notability" rule and all.
Edited by The Burned Handler, Oct 28 2016, 03:27 PM.
MurderWeasel getting impatient
 
Hiya, jerk! Please don't post until edits have been completed, as doing so causes confusion/messes up the queue.


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18:48 Ruggawork I have faith in you!
18:48 Ruggawork and your ass!


Quote:
 
16:35 Kilmarnock Maybe Iktor?
16:35 Kilmarnock Maybe Toben.
16:35 Kilmarnock hard to tell until they make out with me.
16:35 *** mib_6brm7d is now known as Irene


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...now that the important things had been said, my opinion:

As long content is formatted as to per established rules, I am fine with putting everything on the wiki (because like MW I come from a Star Wars Wiki when it comes to personal experience with fan wikis, but anyway).

A wiki is not a measure of status, or a measure of worth, or even relevance. We don't have to pay money by the byte to keep it running, and it isn't like we can actually clutter it because we know how to properly use hyperlinks. There is no 'real estate', this is a webpage and I expect people here to know how the internet words.

A wiki's primary purpose is to offer a source of information on a given topic. A wiki that fails to deliver information a user might seek fails it's actual purpose.
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MurderWeasel
 
My take: I have no problems with the profiles being on the wiki, but also don't think they need to be. If a handler wants to put one up, I see no harm in it, so long as it went through staff approval. We aren't limited in space on the wiki, and there's an awful lot of old stuff with significantly less value to the site that has persisted for years without causing notable problems. I come to our wiki from the context of having loved Wookieepedia, which can tell you the life story of the dude who serves Obi-wan a drink in A New Hope.


Part of my issue here is that the removal of old pages like that are exactly what I suggested in my cleanup proposal to staff a few months ago. I personally feel like keeping old things like the Abandoned/Denied profiles around is mostly clutter and has the potential to breed bad feelings from those who wrote the denied profiles (or conversely, might encourage people to write troll profiles thanks to the visibility).

MurderWeasel
 
Good points! That said, an item of note: one does not need a profile to have a wiki page. So, like, if a character matters enough to merit a page, but has no profile, there should just be enough stuff there to make the page not stupidly tiny anyways, so the lack of a profile shouldn't really be a huge deal.


Where I draw the line for this is basically plot or lore relevance. The Danya family are obviously important to lore so it's fine for the members other than Victor and Tracen to have pages to themselves. Same goes to plot-relevant NPCs like Mr. Kwong in V4. The issue comes in again when we have pages for people who don't affect the overall storyline and could probably be just as well summed up in a character's trivia section without all the fluff.

MurderWeasel
 
So, my take: if something's important to someone and actually in the story (and regardless of relative focus/import, pregame and Meanwhile are part of the story), it doesn't hurt to have it on the wiki. It might not hurt to not have it on the wiki either, but we're not gonna run out of space any time soon and the wiki is totally full of weird and unimportant stuff anyways.


Honestly, half this stuff were things I suggested deleting. I feel like a lot of it is artifacts of older site culture before SOTF as a whole really figured out the direction and tone it would take and is superfluous. See my previous point about the potential to breed bad feelings especially when it comes to things like old handler pages that give detailed accounts of whatever kind of site drama was going on at the time.

My thoughts on what should or shouldn't be on the wiki can be summed up as "Is this information people are going to find useful and will want quickly available?". If the answer is "no", it shouldn't be there.
"Art enriches the community, Steve, no less than a pulsing fire hose, or a fireman beating down a blazing door. So what if we're drawing a nude man? So what if all we ever draw is a nude man, or the same nude man over and over in all sorts of provocative positions? Context, not content! Process, not subject! Don't be so gauche, Steve, it's beneath you."
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MurderWeasel
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The Burned Handler
Oct 28 2016, 03:26 PM
For whatever it's worth, I don't really think the unapproved characters should be on the wiki. It feels less archival and more like mocking people whose characters weren't up to scratch.
I'm actually on this side as well--I think they were purged from the wiki before the great wiki crash, but restored in whatever rollback we had.
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Juliette Sargent drawn by Mimi and Ryuki
Alton Gerow drawn by Mimi
Lavender Ripley drawn by Mimi
Phillip Olivares drawn by Ryuki
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MurderWeasel
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My take on backslash's:

When deciding if something should be removed, it's always important to ask why.

What does having denied character pages bring to the wiki? Some potentially interesting V1 trivia. What does removing them bring to the wiki? The removal of potential drama and bad feelings, plus the deletion of confusing information that has nothing to do with any game ever RPed. Since the profiles are still accessible on the site, I think a removal there makes a lot of sense; the payoff is bigger than the cost.

Next up, handler pages. What does having old handler pages bring to the wiki? A fun look at how handlers represented themselves, plus a place for them to pretty much have their own little profile on the wiki. What does removing them bring? Potential removal of drama or bad feelings. I think the payoff there is kinda small--better to just redact any drama that causes issues (which to my knowledge has not happened at any point in the last ~eight years) and leave the pages where people are having fun and causing no harm to anything else.

Random NPCs? What does having them bring? It gives information on these characters who were at some point or other important to handlers. What does removing them bring? Organization, but a sort that's largely meaningless. If they're really small enough to fit in a trivia section, then sure, maybe move them there. Ayala, however, has enough stuff that it'd be clunky to stuff him into a trivia section, and there's just... no real issue with him having a page. It doesn't draw attention from anyone. It doesn't hide important info somewhere obscure (and that could be fixed more easily with a link than a deletion anyways). It's just extra info that someone may or may not care about, and if they don't, then they don't have to read it.
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Alton Gerow drawn by Mimi
Lavender Ripley drawn by Mimi
Phillip Olivares drawn by Ryuki
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Re: handler pages, it would be much easier to just remove the site drama notes included on them. Forgot to add that in, but that's a preferable option to zapping all of them, because the latter would result in a ton of redlinks.
"Art enriches the community, Steve, no less than a pulsing fire hose, or a fireman beating down a blazing door. So what if we're drawing a nude man? So what if all we ever draw is a nude man, or the same nude man over and over in all sorts of provocative positions? Context, not content! Process, not subject! Don't be so gauche, Steve, it's beneath you."
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The Burned Handler
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MurderWeasel
Oct 28 2016, 03:56 PM
What does removing them bring to the wiki? The removal of potential drama and bad feelings
I don't think anybody is still around who'd care even a little about the unapproved characters, re: hurt feelings, but the rest of your point (unquoted) stands.

...Also, haha, I didn't get rid of Erick's or Alex's pages? Welp.
MurderWeasel getting impatient
 
Hiya, jerk! Please don't post until edits have been completed, as doing so causes confusion/messes up the queue.


Quote:
 
18:48 Ruggawork I have faith in you!
18:48 Ruggawork and your ass!


Quote:
 
16:35 Kilmarnock Maybe Iktor?
16:35 Kilmarnock Maybe Toben.
16:35 Kilmarnock hard to tell until they make out with me.
16:35 *** mib_6brm7d is now known as Irene


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Laurels
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Here's a thought: what if, on the Tropes page, we have a Meanwhile folder? There's a tab that is all tropes specific to Meanwhile threads, characters, and events. For one, there's two versions of Meanwhile that can be filled, so there would be plenty to put in there. Second, it could be a good way of keeping the version folders specific to events in the game proper, such as moving V6 meanwhile tropes in the V6 folder to this folder. This would be easy to implement and can invite people to read more Meanwhile threads.
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The Burned Handler
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We could pair that with maybe going back a bit and adding pregame tropes to their versions' folders too, to offset v6 and v5(?) having some pregame tropes. It'd feel a little more balanced that way. Not so many they flood over the game stuff, but enough for some inclusion. RC kept bringing up Monty Pondsworth, for example, and his small on-screen role but big impact on several characters could be worth noting.
MurderWeasel getting impatient
 
Hiya, jerk! Please don't post until edits have been completed, as doing so causes confusion/messes up the queue.


Quote:
 
18:48 Ruggawork I have faith in you!
18:48 Ruggawork and your ass!


Quote:
 
16:35 Kilmarnock Maybe Iktor?
16:35 Kilmarnock Maybe Toben.
16:35 Kilmarnock hard to tell until they make out with me.
16:35 *** mib_6brm7d is now known as Irene


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MurderWeasel
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Random thought: Does anyone else think it might be a good idea to trim the winner/finalist summaries from the top of the wiki? They made sense back in, like, V1/2 when the wiki was informing members of the state of the game, but they seems a little wordy and redundant now. Or perhaps keep only the summary for the most recent version (in this case V5)? All the info is available in many other places, and greeting readers with wordiness plus spoilers strikes me as perhaps not the most optimal tactic for those not already in the know who access the wiki. Those who are already in the know, meanwhile, probably don't read that stuff anyways since it's common knowledge among members.
V7:
Juliette Sargent drawn by Mimi and Ryuki
Alton Gerow drawn by Mimi
Lavender Ripley drawn by Mimi
Phillip Olivares drawn by Ryuki
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MurderWeasel
Dec 16 2016, 10:13 PM
Random thought: Does anyone else think it might be a good idea to trim the winner/finalist summaries from the top of the wiki? They made sense back in, like, V1/2 when the wiki was informing members of the state of the game, but they seems a little wordy and redundant now. Or perhaps keep only the summary for the most recent version (in this case V5)? All the info is available in many other places, and greeting readers with wordiness plus spoilers strikes me as perhaps not the most optimal tactic for those not already in the know who access the wiki. Those who are already in the know, meanwhile, probably don't read that stuff anyways since it's common knowledge among members.
I could see the logic in trimming all but the most recent summary, since the front page is pretty long as-is and is only going to get longer. Might help in keeping people from thinking that only finalists/winners merit attention, too, if it's more of a recent recap.
"Art enriches the community, Steve, no less than a pulsing fire hose, or a fireman beating down a blazing door. So what if we're drawing a nude man? So what if all we ever draw is a nude man, or the same nude man over and over in all sorts of provocative positions? Context, not content! Process, not subject! Don't be so gauche, Steve, it's beneath you."
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MurderWeasel
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Yeah, that's generally my thought. I feel like it probably was aimed as a recent status/summary thing in the first place anyways, but because of the amount of time/wiki changeover during V3 sort of stumbled into its current deal. If someone really wants a summary of past games it can be found here anyways.
V7:
Juliette Sargent drawn by Mimi and Ryuki
Alton Gerow drawn by Mimi
Lavender Ripley drawn by Mimi
Phillip Olivares drawn by Ryuki
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Riki
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you may have read about the sotf dictionary in the discord. Here is the draft, write something if you want to contribute. You know, like a wiki, but before the wiki.

draft
 
Survival of the Fittest is a play-by-post role play. While it's mechanics may seem familiar to you, the community has developed many terms over the years. These are relatively unique to this game, and might confuse casual readers. This site is a list of terms used by the SotF community and it's staff, here to help you pick up the language.

Endgame:

Essentially, the finale round of SotF. When the cast of students has been reduced to four, these four remaining students enter Endgame. Endgame is a specific phase of the game where activity rules change, and the handlers of the four final characters have to sort out who wins Survival of the Fittest.

Handler:

A Handler is a real person who is actively writing one or more characters in Pregame or the main game. All Handlers are members of the forum, but not all forum members are handlers. For a list of former and active handlers, follow this link.

Version:

Each version is an iteration of the game. In other words, the plot spanning from the conception of a particular high school's class of students to the conclusion of the winner's epilogue constitutes a Version. One might also call it a 'season' of SotF.
Fiyori Senay
 


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