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Persy and Naft's Excellent Critique Adventure
I'm throwing Garrett into this because it's glorious. Linkeys are below.

The General Music Thread
Kalopsia
Nov 29 2013, 07:25 PM
MurderWeasel
Nov 29 2013, 07:19 PM
Deamon
Nov 29 2013, 06:39 PM
Just heard Five Finger Death Punch's cover of House of the Rising Sun. Sounds close to the original but has the typical FFDP style which is cool. They did change New Orleans to Sin City so I'm thinking that was to make it more contemporary, still good none the less.
Which original, out of curiosity?
Oh no.

ONLY PAIN LIES DOWN THIS ROAD.
Posted Image

Buffy Mafia Game Thread
I'm too tired to dig into everything right now. I'm getting some weird vibes off of Ime's reasoning, but unless she lives past tonight I don't think it's anything to dig into. For now, I'm going to go with the consensus that BP is shady as fuck and Vote: Flare

General Video Game Discussion Thread
I'm back on Skyrim because I can finally run it with mods and shit, and I can confirm years after everyone else that it is ohmygodsogood.

Buffy Mafia Game Thread
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That said? I'm actually slightly favoring Flare's claim at the moment for one reason: Un pushed his wagon hard. Why on earth would the mafia's role cop press their godfather like that? It does not make sense to me.


One note here: There seems to be a lot of traction towards the "There are two mafia" theory. I'm not entirely sure why, but if we assume that there are, Flare could be the godfather for the mafia opposite of Persy's.

I'm not sure where to stand on Flare's claim. I'm really leaning towards a lynch because at least as far as I remember, BP townie doesn't really come up that often and it's a really weird role overall. I think that does make him a better lynch target than Slam, especially since Slam is finally committing to a few stances that allow an actual read to be made. His stubbornness is disconcerting though and I'm watching it.

I don't really see anything too suspicious about Bro's wording personally, but that's just me. I won't give in depth thoughts on that until he responds, but at the moment he's not soaring too high on my scum reads.

Buffy Mafia Game Thread
Not to mention the fact that flavor's stated to be mostly just for funsies. So digging too deep might not be worth the effort there.

Buffy Mafia Game Thread
Aura Master Fox
Nov 24 2013, 06:09 PM
And to answer your question, DocBalance, there is a scum role that's usually nightkill-immune other than the serial killer.

... It's the Godfather.
...well then.

Flare, your rebuttal?

Buffy Mafia Game Thread
Praise be to Jeebus, at least we're finally getting somewhere.
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For everyone else's sake though: I just re-reread Deamon's posts, and I still feel the same way: he's defended himself with fair logic, and the persecution against him has been relentless regardless. What he's said has made fair logical sense, he's hardly thrown spears at people without provocation, and as far as I care his defence has been perfectly valid. So yeah, let's just say I agree with his 'arguments', even though they're not arguments to begin with, they're just answering people's pokes at him.

This is what I've been asking for literally the entire time. You've never said it until now. You never said it yesterday when Rugga asked you. Was this really so damn hard to just come out and commit to? Goddamn.
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That part right there, that you're referring to? Means I don't like to consider it as a possible policy lynch, and as such never thought of it as one. Still don't.

That is the part I'm referring to. Why did you consider it a policy lynch? Did you feel it was being represented as a policy lynch, and if so by who? That's the question I've been repeatedly asking.
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Okay, ONCE AGAIN, my point about the fact that he was still alive is suspicious was SARCASM. I'm getting sick of reiterating that, just because you want to make it look like it's worse than Hitler.

Let me phrase this very clearly: WHY IS HE STILL ON YOUR LIST OF SCUM READS? Clarify this point. This is the point I'm asking about. Stop dodging it and wish-washing back and forth. Which, thankfully, you finally did here:
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His support of the Deamon lynch is my main reason why I find him suspicious, since I find the lynch still rather suspicious in the first place. Tobe usually only presses with good reason, and I'm not seeing it in Deamon's run.

I don't agree with this reasoning, but it's a reason. I don't have any other reason to press you about it, because you answered the question instead of moaning about it being asked. Do you see how this works?
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I don't know; what did YOU get from R.C.'s Lynch?

Absolutely nothing, though I never claimed to be gaining anything other than ridding us of possible scum due to his evasiveness late in the phase. You're still dodging the question, though. You went on to explain what one wants to get out of a policy lynch, but what did you actually get? What leads did you get from that lynch, if any? Did you not get anything? Is this why you've ignored it until now? Because you could have just said that and saved us a lot of time.

Moving on to someone actually cooperative: Wow. Did not call you being the vig, Ime. So Flare is night kill immune? I'd really like to hear more about that. It could have just been a lucky Doctor play, but that seems unlikely to me since Flare didn't have a huge amount of attention, unless I'm misremembering. The thing is, I also can't think of a scum role that's traditionally night kill immune other than Serial Killer? Maybe someone with more experience with board mafia can enlighten me on that.

Buffy Mafia Game Thread
Slam
Nov 24 2013, 04:48 PM
Whatever helps you sleep at night, brah. Pretty sure anyone else who's read my posts will see the answers to those points.
Provide examples. This is beginning to get irritating.

On Deamon's arguments, you've said you don't think people are really listening to them. When I asked why you agreed with them, you said you didn't say you agreed. When I asked why you disagreed, you said you didn't say you disagreed either. So I'm asking you to state plainly: Do you agree or disagree with Deamon's arguments, and why?

On Deamon as a scum or policy, you claimed it was a policy lynch on day 2, then claimed it was never a policy lynch on day 3. Clarify.

On Murderweasel being scum, the only evidence you brought up for it was the fact that he's still alive, and then you quickly back-tracked and told me to "quit bitching about obvious sarcasm." So why is he still on your list of reads?

On R.C.'s lynch you've never followed up about it. You went right into analyzing the night kills on Day 2, and you keep ignoring the fact that it's been mentioned in your posts. What did you get from it, if anything?

This is the last time I'm reclarifying this. After that I'm writing you off as obvious scum and leaving you at the top of my reads.

Buffy Mafia Game Thread
Slam
Nov 24 2013, 04:23 PM
Doc, why are you backtracking on this?




I'll happily answer!

Answered and addressed are two very different words. Addressed means that you acknowledged them at all. Answered means that you actually explained them.
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See that? See how annoying it is?


Nope, not annoyed at all even though you clearly aren't going anywhere with this question, because answering questions is how you play the game.

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And yes that's the only point I'm addressing, because your argument is still just picking holes in the same topic no matter how I respond to it and then saying whatever the hell you want about everything else.


Which same topic? Off the top of my head I know I've questioned you on:

Whether you support Deamon's arguments or not, and if so why.

Whether you think people are pushing Deamon as scum or as a policy lynch.

Whether you think Murderweasel is scummy or not, and if so why.

What "juicy nuggets" you got from the R.C. lynch.

That's four topics, only two of which are linked together. Once again, you're over-simplifying and ducking out on contributing, to the point that it's starting to make me suspect that you don't actually have reasons for anything that you do.

Buffy Mafia Game Thread
EBWOP: Hold up.

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You, Doc, and haven't decided about the last one.


Slam, why is MW still on your list of scum reads? Were you not being sarcastic about being suspicious of his survival? Do you have other reasons to suspect him being scum? Your entire commentary on "obvious sarcasm" leaves me very confused on this point, since it's the only thing you've said about him.

Buffy Mafia Game Thread
Grim Wolf
Nov 24 2013, 02:30 PM
I think Slam's done a respectable job of arguing against you, and has clearly put in a lot of time, energy, and effort. Far better than Deamon's token efforts, and the reasoning about Un-py's soft defense in spite of his apparent scumread sounds strong to me. This, by the way, is an argument Deamon is yet to address.

I'm not talking about transparency. I'm talking about mounting an actual active defense. Whatever else we can say, Slam's taken the time and effort to address the accusations against him. Deamon refuses to do the same.
We are reading two very different sets of posts, it seems. Slam has only even addressed around two of the points I've brought up to him, and has become increasingly agitated and defensive. He has consistently denied or contradicted reasoning from the previous days without giving any reason why. He hasn't put effort in. He isn't trying to maintain consistency in his actions. He's just being active for activity's sake without putting any real substance behind it.

Transparency and consistency are important, at least to me. Slam has responded, not defended. These are two very different ideas. Slam continually projected the idea that he has no accountability to the town for his actions, no need to explain or even obtain reasoning, and no reason to jump on lynches unless they're going to go through without him. These are all incredibly classic scum tells, and even if he isn't scum, he's playing just like active, town-hampering scum with the proviso that he(most likely) doesn't have a night kill.

I completely agree that Deamon needs to mount a better defense and contribute more to get out of my crosshairs. But while he's not actively supporting the town, he's also not actively undermining us. That makes Slam a bigger threat to me.

Buffy Mafia Game Thread
EBWOP:
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Doc, I think you're fixating on Slam a bit weirdly. Her answers can seem a little wishywashy, I guess, but in general she seems to address any accusations. I don't know that she's a priority.

Two things here. First, I'd like some specifics on this since I can't find one place where Slam has actually answered any accusations. He mostly just gets upset about people looking into him and questioning his decisions and says he'll do whatever he feels like without reasoning. So I'm curious as to where you're getting that he addresses accusations. Secondly:
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By contrast, I think the reasoning on Deamon has generally been spot on.

I'd like you to elaborate on how their play differs, other than the fact that Deamon has been waaaaaaaaaay more transparent with his reasoning.

Buffy Mafia Game Thread
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I never even commented on last night's kills. JSYK.

Actually, you did. JSYK.
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I also enjoy the idea that Zab was a vig kill, since Zab seemed to like drawing attention to himself, whilst Vyse's activity and pro-activeness was probably his downfall

Why the back-track on this comment as well?

Buffy Mafia Game Thread
NotAFlyingToy
Nov 23 2013, 11:48 PM
EBWOP: Doc <3
U no ily bby <3

Buffy Mafia Game Thread
MurderWeasel
Nov 23 2013, 10:29 PM
What is your read on Deamon now?
I'm getting a mild scum read on Deamon that is vastly enhanced by Slam's unwillingness to take a firm stance on him. Like I said yesterday, my biggest problem with him is that he doesn't have any substance to most of his posts, and he lacks context a lot of the time. For instance, his first comment today:
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Your reasoning still sucks.

It really only makes sense now that I'm looking at his and Bro's posts together. It makes it really hard for me to catch up and analyze what he's saying a lot of the time, and I don't feel like he gives enough information to make a hard read. I do, however, think there's an interesting exchange with Persy about this:
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My theory is either Zabriel poked at the wrong person and get them edgy so they offed him or someone thought he was extra scummy and got rid of him I feel that since Vyse was also taken out it's more likely to be the second one.

Persy thought it was hasty to say that Zabriel was a Vig kill and Vyse was a Mafia kill when there could be an SK on the loose. Deamon reiterated that he thought Vyse was Mafia kill in response and said nothing about Zabriel being a vig kill. I find this idea interesting, because Slam posted this:
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I also enjoy the idea that Zab was a vig kill, since Zab seemed to like drawing attention to himself, whilst Vyse's activity and pro-activeness was probably his downfall.

So they're both pushing the idea that there's a vigilante and not a second scum nightkill. I'm not sure what their motivation is for that, but it's a strange connection in light of how little Slam wants to talk about Deamon.

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What is your read on Un's list of reads?

I made some minor notes about it earlier before launching into Slam more, but I think we're playing a little bit of WIFOM with it. Would he want to try and protect his fellow scum members by reading them as town, since he was being read as town and could vouch for them? Or would he rather put them more negatively in the null range so as to keep distance without outright incriminating them? It's useful to supplement reads, but I'm not going to be citing it as major evidence in any of those hunts. I don't think the fact that Slam was read positively by Un definitely makes him scum, for instance.
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Who are your top three town reads?

1. Imehal. She's generally good at digging and asking questions, even if she's not the most active member. I don't always agree with her conclusions, but she's really good at keeping her posts relatively filler-free and moving discussion forward.
2. Grim Wolf. He's really good at being transparent about his reasoning, and I appreciate that. Again, I'm not necessarily in agreement with him on everything, but I feel like I can follow him pretty easily and understand his thought process, and none of it has been too scummy to me yet.
3. Shangela. Shangela's new so it's hard to get a good read, but I'm liking what I'm seeing. There's good analysis and involvement already, and picking up on the Skraal exchange with Slam is at the very least an interesting lead.
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Who are your top three scum reads?

1. Slam, as I've clarified.
2. Deamon, also for the reasons posted above.
3. Naft, because I'm suspicious of him playing the same game that Slam and Deamon are, though with much cleaner execution and less evidence. I'll admit that this is a really weak read and it's mostly for observation, not active suspicion.


Buffy Mafia Game Thread
Slam
Nov 23 2013, 10:00 PM
I am getting really bored of your arguments just consisting of picking on the generalities in my sentences and acting like it's a contradiction.
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I am getting really bored of your arguments just consisting of picking on the generalities in my sentences


Examples please. The only contradictions I've pointed out have been specific things, like you saying Deamon's wagon wasn't a policy lynch when you criticized it as a policy lynch the phase before.

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but I'm not really going to get anywhere in making that point carry by just repeating myself over and over to your reworded points and nitpicks.


And I'm not going to let you speak in broad strokes about being misrepresented or ignored when it's like pulling teeth getting you to commit to anything at all. I've addressed your new points and asked for legitimate clarifications. Did you or did you not agree with Deamon's arguments last phase? Was it a policy lynch or wasn't it? If not, why did you say it was last phase? If it was, why did you just claim it wasn't? Why do you believe you should only join policy lynches if they're going to happen anyway? What advantage does that bring to the town? What advantage does not lynching(as we did last phase) bring to the town?

I'm giving you a lot of questions to work with here. I'm giving you a chance to state your case. But you repeatedly refuse it and ignore the bulk of these questions while bemoaning the fact that you feel you're being ignored. You've taken one legitimate stance this game: RC's lynch. You laid out a lot of reasoning about how it would turn up new leads for the town. You then never followed up on any of those leads. For all your talk of "juicy nuggets," you haven't had one thing to say about RC's flop. Beyond that, you've played WIFOM with last phases night kills, and you've said that you don't like Deamon's wagon, and you don't like me. Explain why. Ask questions. Do something other than complain. These are all things that would contribute towards getting you out of my cross-hairs.

Buffy Mafia Game Thread
EBWOP:
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Doc's been in... a lot of these


It's sorta my schtick : P It doesn't help that Slam is doing exactly what I accused Naft of except much, much scummier and not as tidily.

Buffy Mafia Game Thread
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Because Dea's wasn't a policy lynch in the first place?


Really now?

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But yeah, I don't personally feel there's enough stake in the deamon lynch, nor do I really like it as a policy lynch. But then I'm guessing that inactivity's going to leave us lynchless today anyway, sooooooooooooooo yeah.


You were treating it as a policy lynch before. What changed?

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Dea if I recall correctly never had more than half the required votes for a lynch on him


Something you pointed out and bemoaned last phase as a lack of activity, not a lack of evidence.

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I didn't say I didn't agree with his arguments either


Which is why I said it was non-committal. Read. You didn't say you agree or disagree, which is useless.

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pay attention to the point that I'm making (which to repeat myself, since I know I have to with you, was that people were making up their minds regardless of what he said).


Just going to point out more of the passive-aggressive filler noise that you use to try and discredit people you disagree with without attacking their arguments.

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this is exactly how you behaved in PR Mafia, where you were scum.


And exactly how I behaved in Community Mafia, where I was scum. And exactly how I behaved in Pokemon Mafia, where I was town. And how I would have behaved in Survivor Mafia if I hadn't been Voiceless and thus completely disinterested in the game. And how I acted on the rare occasions I actually committed in Homestuck Mafia, where I was town. Are you seeing a pattern? This is how I always act. The only thing that changes is my behind the scenes communications and my motivations for selecting scum targets. My style of picking apart posts and looking for questions doesn't really change unless I'm not paying attention, as I wasn't Day One of this game and most of the Survivor and Homestuck Mafias. I could get into a whole meta discussion about why this is, but that's better saved for post-game.

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. RC was going to get lynched anyway, that being the meaning behind a policy lynch, so it might as well go through so there's something absolute to go on afterwards. Deamon hadn't become certain enough to merit a policy lynch, so I wasn't going to say 'screw it let's kill him anyway'. I mean, that would be pretty scummy right dar.


...no, what's scummy is only jumping in on lynches when they're certain to go through. That's not a policy lynch. A policy lynch is voting for someone because you believe their behavior is destructive. Your presence on a lynch should not be contingent on it not needing your support.

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Wow, that's a great way to dismiss any efforts I make as just a 'nah my behaviour isn't dependent on whether I'm scum or town so don't bother investigating it' manner that I totally buy.


Already answered this, but I'll reiterate: Don't cherry-pick one game. Provide examples of me not acting this way because I'm town. It doesn't exist. I always play the exact same style no matter what role I'm placed in, because allowing overt style tells based on your role is silly.

Buffy Mafia Game Thread
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Yeah I don't know if you misread me or something here, since it says in the quote you've quoted that I DIDN'T involve myself in that lynch, which was my point again. I mean, is your point that I didn't involve myself in the Deamon lynch?


No, you're consistently misreading and misrepresenting the problem. That being that you didn't jump on the Deamon lynch without supplying any reason why you disliked this policy lynch anymore than the RC one. Your points for RC's lynch were "It will turn up a bunch of juicy nuggets and information," and I'm wondering how the Deamon wagon was any less so. I'm wondering that because this:
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Because I've bloody explained why I didn't do that: I didn't like the reasoning behind it or consider him scummy enough. And unlike RC, I didn't feel that Dea was making a huge issue of himself.


Is literally the first thing you've said about it that isn't a vague retread of "I don't like it." The bolded part in particular has never shown up in your posts before now, at least not that I can see. This is what I'm looking for. Thank you for supplying the absolute bare minimum of a reason. Now expand on it: Why is Dea not as much of an issue as RC?

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My point was never even that 'I agree with his arguments' anyway, it was that I felt people were pigeonholing Deamon into scumminess and made their minds up without hearing him out. Besides, I don't have to do Dea's job for him.


Again, this is non-committal. If you don't agree with his arguments, then how are people making up their minds without hearing him out? Why are they automatically ignoring his arguments anymore than you're automatically supporting them? Which people are they? Do you get scum-reads off of them? Commit to something.

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For the third freaking time I've already explained why I don't like policy lynches: you don't get any info out of them. /quote]

Day One Slam didn't share this opinion.

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I will come forward though and reiterate that it is largely a policy lynch to squeeze more juice nuggets out of a player with a low sense of self-preservation, not that I am entirely convinced that RC is legitimately good or bad (though there's enough scumminess going on that I don't feel the need to put my neck out for him).


And yes, we've talked about the fact that this is a contradiction. Yes, you've had to repeat yourself. Do you know why? Because you've never clarified why Deamon's lynch is less juicy than RC's. This is something that's been repeatedly asked for, and your greatest response so far is "Because I don't wanna."

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...and your point is? I'm stating that YOUR behavior is identical to when you were scum in the past; what I'm doing has nothing to do with it.


My behavior is always the same no matter what role I'm in. I don't really change, I pick people who I think look scummy and I persistently chase them until my points are cleared up. Maybe it's not the best strategy, but you're really not going to get a lot gold-mining general behaviors from me.