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Buffy Mafia Game Thread
Will you people stop accusing me of trying to ruin the game for everyone?

Buffy Mafia Game Thread
Imehal
Nov 27 2013, 08:12 PM
Slam
answer please?
Slam, Iím curious. Why didnít you just ignore Docís tactics if you felt they were not productive and actually focused on reads and asking questions to other people. Iím surprised people donít realise that actually ignoring the battering ram of questions is an option if you felt youíve answered them adequately. Instead you remained defensive?
If I had answered any less than I already did, people would've actually had a legitimate reason to accuse me of avoiding giving any answers.

(Apologies I saw that one then kind of spaced on the fact that you'd asked it)

Buffy Mafia Game Thread
Guuuuuuuuuuys activity.

Buffy Mafia Game Thread
Well now you're just being unfairly cutting.

V5 Third Announcement
Well that's a bummer. So I guess I need death ideas or something? I mean I still have a thread to finish getting reformed and then do that to catch up on the time period before the murder can even get started, but hey the more ideas the merrier.

Buffy Mafia Game Thread
Vicks hun, could you please actually justify a vote on me next time rather than just adding it as an afterthought.

Buffy Mafia Game Thread
OH Bullet Proof ignore me.

Buffy Mafia Game Thread
Who claimed what now?

Buffy Mafia Game Thread
Ninja'd.

Don't think there's sufficient reason to murder Flare yet, since a two-shot bulletproof kill seems pretty specific. Obviously, it's pretty convenient from the point of testing him with a vig, so I guess they could always double check it, but having a townie immune to nightkills come endgame is always useful, plus it would waste two of their night actions (one of which they might very well need for me for all we know) so I'm personally against that.

Buffy Mafia Game Thread
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Me
 
What is your read on Deamon now?

Slam
 
He hasn't done enough this phase to sway me in either direction. If he isn't scum, they've got no reason not to just leave him alive to keep people's eyes on him instead of looking elsewhere, so the fact that he's alive doesn't really suggest anything either.

This is a little odd, since it's fairly noncommittal. I'm assuming it means you still think he's not super suspicious, since that was your stance last phase and not being swayed either way implies you still hold the same views (feel free to correct me if that's a bad assumption). The big thing here is that your answer boils down to "My read is unchanged and is basically null."


Well, Dea really hadn't done much of anything this phase when I was asked that. Since I've already explained why him being still alive doesn't really mean much from my PoV, I can't exactly have changed my mind in his favor or not.

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Me
 
What is your read on Un's list of reads?

Slam
 
Un could have easily just pulled the bulk of that list out of his arse to sew confusion about alignments when he flipped. He's got no reason to shove the entire scum list on a silver platter if he died, and I know that his read of town-null on me is wrong, so I'm not going to put much faith in the list as a whole.

This is discrediting evidence provided by scum. Sure, it's good to look at it with caution, but throwing it out wholesale's a bad idea, especially since Un made at least one other really bad play last phase in voting No Lynch. Knowing one read is wrong is no reason to assume there's nothing else to be found by digging, and trying to bury the list makes me want nothing more than to poke through it more. This sets me off because in place of investigation we see an attempt to discredit some of our scant evidence.


Hey, use it as correlation for further evidence if you start to have reason to believe a trend is forming from his list, like say all the scum reveals having been townreads, but until I see enough proof that it isn't just a random list of names, or are people who Unpy had good reason to think were town (such as knowing that they were, in fact, town), I'm not going to use it as a gospel of whom to murder.


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Me
 
Who are your top three town reads?

Slam
 
Haven't decided.

That is profoundly unhelpful, especially given that one thing you're under fire for is not having a particularly clear opinion on things (though I do think Doc is selling you short to some degree; your Deamon position is pretty clear to me by this point and the nitpicky tunnel fight over semantics generally feels of no use to me). It's an attempt by me to get some thoughts rolling and snowballing, and it slams straight into a brick wall.


Sucks. I'm not going to start discrediting anyone until I feel comfortable with it, however.

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Me
 
Who are your top three scum reads?

Slam
 
You, Doc, and haven't decided about the last one.

Doc's old news. I'm a good one to bring up. No answer for the third is, again, a brick wall in the face of requests for speculation. What I'm seeing here is you trying to avoid leaving a trail any more than necessary.


If it makes you feel better I'm leaning Dom is mafia? I mean I know Dom does what he does in mafia, but he's still wagoning for the sake of wagoning. Last time I checked, that's fairly scummy. IDK, Dom kind of trolls whatever game he joins anyway so, I personally would lynch him but I understand there's more pressing priorities. Other than that, don't feel confident about anyone else enough yet to have made up my mind.

Also, the major flaw in your reasoning of me only defending Deamon if I know he's town is that it doesn't consider that I might not be acting entirely from a point of self preservation. My motivation for defending Deamon was still that I thought the wagon was occurring too much from people just going with it for the sake of a lynch, rather than having legitimate evidence to suspect him, and if I must be the guy who tells everyone to take a step back and reevaluate their position, then so be it.

I mean, if people lynch Deamon and then he flips scum, then by all means if the vig is still alive he can feel free to pop me the night phase after. Otherwise you're just going to waste a day talking about lynching me only to get a townie, so I'm just trying to save everyone some time here.

Also,

BROseidon
 
I think Slam's an okay lynch, but Flare's better.

MW's stated the case on Slam. I'm going to add that his general frustration looks more like it's directed at the points being bad than the conclusion being wrong, which points towards scum caught out for the wrong reasons.


Reads as somewhat bandwagoning to me. 'I agree with what that guy said', always a favourite scum read of mine, plus the idea that I'm frustrated for being caught out the wrong way is ridiculous. I've already poked the holes in his 'points' (which is really just aggressive questioning), despite his insistence to the contrary, so I have little reason to feel caught out, and I think it's pretty obvious my frustration is entirely with Doc's method of arguing, rather than having pressure put on me in general.

Oh no he's clearly deflecting suspicion, rather than, you know, evaluating posts. Being in the spotlight doesn't mean you're not allowed to make any observations, people.

Buffy Mafia Game Thread
Well now I'm just offended Tobe. I answered all your questions straight away, so I'm not exactly sure what your point is about me evading them. I don't exactly see what you want from me in regards to the Deamon defence, and if I'd really wanted to be soft I would've just said 'yeah I mean, I could go for Deamon as a policy lynch, but I don't think it's a great idea'.

Also I'm not exactly sure how going against a single bandwagon is me 'putting all my eggs in one basket', nor am I entirely sure why I would do that in the first place. I mean, 90% of the suspicion against me is stemming from me defending Deamon, so apparently putting those eggs in the basket was a big 'HEY GUYS LOOK AT ME' neon sign.

Also, saying 'it's the sort of tactic I'd use' isn't really THAT applicable, since we've demonstrated plenty of times to have different mafia styles. And, like Doc to be honest, you're kind of pulling that 'I wanted Deamon to be lynched but didn't want it to be obvious that I wanted that to be a thing' out of your arse, since I'm not exactly sure what I've said that would make you think that way. Apparently if I defend someone I must not really be defending them?

Plus, I say no-one sees me as worthy of pressure because (before your vote), I was on all of three, one of whom was Dom so it's basically worthless. Naft's reason basically seemed to boil down to my sarcasta-post, so without a bandwagon against me I really don't consider there to be any pressure on my head in play.

Really, this brand of logic is pretty weak for you Tobe. Reeks fairly scummy to me.

Buffy Mafia Game Thread
Oh YOU'RE irritated? Welcome to my world of dealing with you.

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On Deamon's arguments, you've said you don't think people are really listening to them. When I asked why you agreed with them, you said you didn't say you agreed. When I asked why you disagreed, you said you didn't say you disagreed either. So I'm asking you to state plainly: Do you agree or disagree with Deamon's arguments, and why?


Still irrelevant to what my actual point was: that people were just ignoring Deamon's arguments all together!

For everyone else's sake though: I just re-reread Deamon's posts, and I still feel the same way: he's defended himself with fair logic, and the persecution against him has been relentless regardless. What he's said has made fair logical sense, he's hardly thrown spears at people without provocation, and as far as I care his defence has been perfectly valid. So yeah, let's just say I agree with his 'arguments', even though they're not arguments to begin with, they're just answering people's pokes at him.

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On Deamon as a scum or policy, you claimed it was a policy lynch on day 2, then claimed it was never a policy lynch on day 3. Clarify.


Me
 
But yeah, I don't personally feel there's enough stake in the deamon lynch, nor do I really like it as a policy lynch.


That part right there, that you're referring to? Means I don't like to consider it as a possible policy lynch, and as such never thought of it as one. Still don't.

Me
 
On Murderweasel being scum, the only evidence you brought up for it was the fact that he's still alive, and then you quickly back-tracked and told me to "quit bitching about obvious sarcasm." So why is he still on your list of reads?


Okay, ONCE AGAIN, my point about the fact that he was still alive is suspicious was SARCASM. I'm getting sick of reiterating that, just because you want to make it look like it's worse than Hitler.

Secondly,

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I kind of feel like we've wound up in the situation where people have just decided that Deamon is guilty and aren't bothering to appreciate his counterarguments, or are just voting him for the sake of a lynch.

I find it particularly odd that Toben would back up this approach, since he's usually more level headed than that.


His support of the Deamon lynch is my main reason why I find him suspicious, since I find the lynch still rather suspicious in the first place. Tobe usually only presses with good reason, and I'm not seeing it in Deamon's run.

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On R.C.'s lynch you've never followed up about it. You went right into analyzing the night kills on Day 2, and you keep ignoring the fact that it's been mentioned in your posts. What did you get from it, if anything?


I don't know; what did YOU get from R.C.'s Lynch?

And to clarify this one, the 'truth nuggets' are the fact that there is a solid answer for R.C.'s alliance that we can correlate to wagons and behaviour from people later. You know, the sort of info basically every lynch, policy or not, gets. Still not enough to justify a policy lynch by itself, but if someone's nothing but a pain in the arse for the town then you might as well trim the fat. (Also again that's just you who feels that way about me, before you bring it up).

There, now that that's done, you can ignore it and go and write me off as obvious scum, and keep me at the top of your reads.

Buffy Mafia Game Thread
Whatever helps you sleep at night, brah. Pretty sure anyone else who's read my posts will see the answers to those points.

Buffy Mafia Game Thread
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Two things here. First, I'd like some specifics on this since I can't find one place where Slam has actually answered any accusations. He mostly just gets upset about people looking into him and questioning his decisions and says he'll do whatever he feels like without reasoning. So I'm curious as to where you're getting that he addresses accusations.


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We are reading two very different sets of posts, it seems. Slam has only even addressed around two of the points I've brought up to him, and has become increasingly agitated and defensive. He has consistently denied or contradicted reasoning from the previous days without giving any reason why. He hasn't put effort in. He isn't trying to maintain consistency in his actions. He's just being active for activity's sake without putting any real substance behind it.


Doc, why are you backtracking on this?

See that? See how annoying it is?


And yes that's the only point I'm addressing, because your argument is still just picking holes in the same topic no matter how I respond to it and then saying whatever the hell you want about everything else. Also you're the only one who seems to feel strongly enough about me to keep this up, so I'm not going to exacerbate this migraine unnecessarily by repeating myself at you.

Buffy Mafia Game Thread
I'm a dude.

Buffy Mafia Game Thread
Leave in a stream of tears or leave in a body bag?

Buffy Mafia Game Thread
Your attempts at baiting me, Doc, are almost as annoying as your insistence on ignoring every point I make and pretending I haven't made any. Although,

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Beyond that, you've played WIFOM with last phases night kills,


I never even commented on last night's kills. JSYK.

Now, to respond to someone who actually does know how to hold an argument:

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What is your read on Deamon now?


He hasn't done enough this phase to sway me in either direction. If he isn't scum, they've got no reason not to just leave him alive to keep people's eyes on him instead of looking elsewhere, so the fact that he's alive doesn't really suggest anything either.

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What is your read on Un's list of reads?


Un could have easily just pulled the bulk of that list out of his arse to sew confusion about alignments when he flipped. He's got no reason to shove the entire scum list on a silver platter if he died, and I know that his read of town-null on me is wrong, so I'm not going to put much faith in the list as a whole.

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Who are your top three town reads?


Haven't decided.

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Who are your top three scum reads?


You, Doc, and haven't decided about the last one.

Buffy Mafia Game Thread
I am getting really bored of your arguments just consisting of picking on the generalities in my sentences and acting like it's a contradiction. Just like last time, arguing against you is like beating my head against a brick wall, so I'm just going to let other people make up their mind instead (and also react to Dom's empty vote. I mean I know it's Dom, but that's still pretty obnoxious). I mean, I'm pretty set that you're scum, but I'm not really going to get anywhere in making that point carry by just repeating myself over and over to your reworded points and nitpicks.

Buffy Mafia Game Thread
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No, you're consistently misreading and misrepresenting the problem. That being that you didn't jump on the Deamon lynch without supplying any reason why you disliked this policy lynch anymore than the RC one. Your points for RC's lynch were "It will turn up a bunch of juicy nuggets and information," and I'm wondering how the Deamon wagon was any less so. I'm wondering that because this:

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Because I've bloody explained why I didn't do that: I didn't like the reasoning behind it or consider him scummy enough. And unlike RC, I didn't feel that Dea was making a huge issue of himself.




Is literally the first thing you've said about it that isn't a vague retread of "I don't like it." The bolded part in particular has never shown up in your posts before now, at least not that I can see. This is what I'm looking for. Thank you for supplying the absolute bare minimum of a reason. Now expand on it: Why is Dea not as much of an issue as RC?


Because Dea's wasn't a policy lynch in the first place? RC was a policy lynch because pretty much the entire town was willing to hang him up for his actions, whilst Dea if I recall correctly never had more than half the required votes for a lynch on him, which is only about a quarter of the population at the end of the day. Sure it's a lot, but there's three times as many who didn't feel the need to vote or weren't sure enough to, so it's not a policy lynch.

As for Dea not being an issue, Dea's behaviour wasn't nearly as blatantly self destructive as RC's.

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Again, this is non-committal. If you don't agree with his arguments, then how are people making up their minds without hearing him out? Why are they automatically ignoring his arguments anymore than you're automatically supporting them? Which people are they? Do you get scum-reads off of them? Commit to something.


I didn't say I didn't agree with his arguments either; pay attention to the point that I'm making (which to repeat myself, since I know I have to with you, was that people were making up their minds regardless of what he said). Also I'm not going to commit to something just because you yell at me to. Unlike some people (hint: you) I don't go looking for people to make mistakes, I let people make mistakes and then jump on them. At the mo this person is you, because again this is exactly how you behaved in PR Mafia, where you were scum.

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For the third freaking time I've already explained why I don't like policy lynches: you don't get any info out of them. /quote]

Day One Slam didn't share this opinion.

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I will come forward though and reiterate that it is largely a policy lynch to squeeze more juice nuggets out of a player with a low sense of self-preservation, not that I am entirely convinced that RC is legitimately good or bad (though there's enough scumminess going on that I don't feel the need to put my neck out for him).



And yes, we've talked about the fact that this is a contradiction. Yes, you've had to repeat yourself. Do you know why? Because you've never clarified why Deamon's lynch is less juicy than RC's. This is something that's been repeatedly asked for, and your greatest response so far is "Because I don't wanna."


Fine. You don't get ENOUGH info out of them; the essential intention is still the same. RC was going to get lynched anyway, that being the meaning behind a policy lynch, so it might as well go through so there's something absolute to go on afterwards. Deamon hadn't become certain enough to merit a policy lynch, so I wasn't going to say 'screw it let's kill him anyway'. I mean, that would be pretty scummy right dar.

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My behavior is always the same no matter what role I'm in. I don't really change, I pick people who I think look scummy and I persistently chase them until my points are cleared up. Maybe it's not the best strategy, but you're really not going to get a lot gold-mining general behaviors from me.


Wow, that's a great way to dismiss any efforts I make as just a 'nah my behaviour isn't dependent on whether I'm scum or town so don't bother investigating it' manner that I totally buy.

Buffy Mafia Game Thread
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You're just talking around me here. Sarcasm doesn't speak for itself when it's played straight-faced, and it's not productive when your point is "This doesn't work." It's way more efficient to simply acknowledge the reasoning and say why it doesn't work. This would, of course, require you to commit to an ideological stance, and you seem to be allergic to them.


Quit bitching about obvious sarcasm, or trying to paint it as a horrible crime. Pick on something more worthwhile.

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Thank you for making my point for me! You didn't involve yourself in that lynch, and that's the point. And you've never provided a reason why. Again, this is suspicious. You still haven't supplied a reason why it isn't.


Yeah I don't know if you misread me or something here, since it says in the quote you've quoted that I DIDN'T involve myself in that lynch, which was my point again. I mean, is your point that I didn't involve myself in the Deamon lynch? Because I've bloody explained why I didn't do that: I didn't like the reasoning behind it or consider him scummy enough. And unlike RC, I didn't feel that Dea was making a huge issue of himself.

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When the most common complaint is "I don't understand his arguments and he's not putting forth any substance," then yeah, you do need to explain why you agree with his arguments. Otherwise you're in the exact same position he is. You already were, but that only enforces it.


My point was never even that 'I agree with his arguments' anyway, it was that I felt people were pigeonholing Deamon into scumminess and made their minds up without hearing him out. Besides, I don't have to do Dea's job for him.

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That's great! Commit to it. State why you don't like them and what you think the alternative is. Why do you think doing nothing is better than being involved in a policy lynch? What benefit does that provide the town. What strategy would you advise instead? To be perfectly blunt so that this connects: Make a fucking case. But doing nothing and then complaining that nothing gets done is worse than useless, it's actively distracting and inhibiting the town.


For the third freaking time I've already explained why I don't like policy lynches: you don't get any info out of them. As I predicted, I'm having to repeat myself over and over in this 'argument' with you. And I was hardly complaining about nothing getting done in regards to policy lynches, the complaint was entirely in the domain of activity which is a perfectly valid thing to poke people on.

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And as I recall, half the game thought you were scummy enough to lynch then too. And you're doing the exact same thing that you're complaining about. Hypocrisy is a common theme for you this game.


...and your point is? I'm stating that YOUR behavior is identical to when you were scum in the past; what I'm doing has nothing to do with it.