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Order Of The Stick Mafia Game Thread
Forgot I still had that down.

UNVOTE

Going to dinner. When I come back, I'm going to read through and see who I find most suspicious and vote for them. If that fails, I will default to whoever is one of my top candidates, has a vote, and has left questions asked of them unanswered. We really can't afford silence/wasted phases.

Order Of The Stick Mafia Game Thread
VysePresident
Nov 30 2014, 04:37 AM
@Grim - Let's hold off on unnecessary Town flavor speculation at the moment, please. For one thing, Mafia might have a Flavor Cop. No reason to help them. I'm willing to bet on a three man scum time, with Xykon, Redcloak, & Tsukiko. (Monster in the Darkness isn't really evil, even before he spends time with O-Chul) Off the top of my tired brain, I don't think there's anything else of much note, and even that's just speculative.
With fifteen players, smart money's on a four-man scum team. The formula I was taught, at least, was 25-33% scum. Three is feasible, especially if they have some good roles, but I find four a lot more likely.

Order Of The Stick Mafia Game Thread
VysePresident
Nov 30 2014, 04:35 AM
That said, I just want to soapbox on Day #1 for a minute, because I feel the assumption that it's expendable is shortsighted in its own way, and it's a mistake I feel a lot of people are making.

<Snipped discussion>
For all we disagree on the jester thing, I'm in total agreement here. Even if we don't hit a lynch, I like seeing day one have a lot of discussion and theorizing, because that makes what flips we do get overnight mean a lot more and allows power roles to better do their thing. I don't see a lynch as a super huge necessity, but I absolutely do see pushing towards something of value as one.

(That said, it is 4 am and it's been a kinda rough night. More thoughts in the morning)

Order Of The Stick Mafia Game Thread
Slam
Nov 29 2014, 02:00 PM
Quote:
 


--I dislike the whole Jester exchange between Murder and Slam. I would love to hear why deliberately lynching a Jester is a good move for Town - it's essentially a guaranteed mislynch, and damages Town's ability to collect information from it. Guys, lynching isn't just the only Town-directed kill we're guaranteed, it's also the only thing that's going to force scum to come out of their comfort zone. If we hit a Jester by accident, okay, but an intentional Jester lynch would be massively counterproductive.

I'm particularly surprised to see MurderWeasel on board with this, given his typical approach of scumhunting as if they didn't exist. I especially dislike the bit in this post referring to a Day #1 lynch as arbitrary. A Day #1 lynch is necessary, and should not be treated as if we could afford to waste it. Otherwise you're guaranteeing that we will. I'm not exactly scumreading either Murder or Slam for this, but it's a point against them.

Given that nobody bit though, I hope we can just put the whole idea of a Jester behind us and get back to the game.


This makes me feel less concerned about Vyse. Good logic, brah.

also, marzipanstrudel is Bik? I feel out of touch.


I'm kind of overbuzzed on a coffee rush now so I'll go into detail on my scum reasoning later Naft, but the short version is that I don't feel like the reasoning people is giving is sufficient enough. But then I'm a noted opponent of day one lynching, so there we go.
Whoa wait, where did this quote come from? I haven't seen that at all. May have missed it in the board coughing last night.

To the quote Slam quoted: This is a really, really shortsighted view. Jesters are effectively scum when it comes to their effect on games. In fact, just the possibility of a jester is a notable anti-town balancing factor; it's why I decided to flat out state none were in play during TV Mafia.

To delve further/briefly examine the subject: the goal of a jester is to get lynched. That means they want to act suspicious. They will do so, distracting from actually suspicious behaviors. This can draw votes and waste time. It can also waste night actions, particularly from investigative roles. A jester doing their job well is unlikely to ever draw significant scum resources, because scum love easy targets for busing. Worse still, if a jester is revealed, any and all information gained from their wagons becomes suspect. They tend to create, at best, an entirely wasted phase with a bunch of noise that adds little to the overall search for scum.

If a jester goes out day one, we waste one lynch (the one with the least available information upon which to base it), no night actions, and lose no data of meaning or merit. It also comes at a time when the there's relatively little pressure on town to land the right lynch or risk losing. Later on, jesters can completely mess things up at much more critical stages, drawing town off key lynches or just withholding votes/causing other chaos. Jesters mess with the lynch, town's greatest tool. In light of that, I treat them as scum and feel that their removal is a huge priority.

I'll probably ramble about this more in the discussion thread when this game is done, but I am absolutely confident in making jesters an issue and priority, and Slam's solution in light of the rules to this setup is a fairly elegant fashion of minimizing the damage caused.

On that note, for Vyse: I'm actually getting a moderate town-read on Slam because of his plan. It displays some solid enough lateral thinking that I don't think it's insincere, and jesters in function are good for the mafia the longer they're around. Given the setup notes, the two most logical situations are a. Slam is town trying to head a proven problem factor off at the pass or b. Slam is himself a jester, testing the waters before revealing himself.

V4 Read-A-Thon: The Reboot
Bro: Change made in the first post. Hunting down mentions elsewhere would take ages. I'll add Nathan to the list when it's reshuffled next week.

Order Of The Stick Mafia Game Thread
VysePresident
Nov 29 2014, 01:27 AM
@Murder - Yeah, I can sympathize. I'm having a little trouble getting as much into the game as I'd like. :/

Thanks for your analysis. I do have another question though - when do you plan on dropping a vote? We have 24-72 hours left until deadline hits, so sooner is better than later.

It's not trouble getting into it, like, enjoyment wise--I'm having a blast. Just rusty.

For a vote, I'm unsure. I'm not averse to using my vote to help something happen as opposed to nothing, but don't feel comfortable enough with any of the suspects to push hard myself at this stage, and by my count (which may be a bit inaccurate) we're still quite a ways from a lynch. The site is messing up really badly such that I can't reliably review the thread, so I'm at the very least not getting much down before tomorrow.

Order Of The Stick Mafia Game Thread
VysePresident
Nov 28 2014, 10:36 PM
@Murder - I'd really like a general Town/Null/Scum type list from you, because I'm not sure where your thoughts are at present. I'd particularly like your thoughts on Bik, Espi, & Naft, if you don't mind.
As you wish! Although, to be honest, I've struggled a bit this phase.

Bik: Can't say for sure, but not of huge utility. He's focused on the Espi issue, oddly so. If he wasn't pushing it so hard, I'd read it as more scummy, especially since he wasn't the first to throw the accusation. The thing is, though, the Espi wagon isn't big and Bik has stuck on it pretty solidly. I don't like that he never came back with his promised further analysis, though.

Espi: I don't like that he just brushes off NAFT's accusations as random. It's also a tricky situation in that almost all of his leads center around his own situation. He scum-reads NAFT (who scum-reads him), is iffy scum-reading RC but gives an out in his post (which makes it of no use to me), and town-reads Vyse (who is the one most articulately providing another lynch option). He also hasn't put a vote down, period. That's leaning scummier to me, in that it all strikes me as someone trying not to be eliminated.

NAFT: NAFT is very tough for me to read. I have some inkling of what he's doing and have chosen not to pursue it too far yet. Basically, my gut hunch is a town read because he's focused very heavily on a few causes and isn't engaging with other stuff much, which suggests a commitment to actually making things happen as opposed to drowning town in a sea of noise. He's slick enough for this to be a zero-confidence read, though. I need more data to make anything of worth from NAFT.

I have a very difficult time with early-game reads sans evidence of any sort, though, so grain of salt for all of this.

V4 Read-A-Thon: The Reboot
Bowser
Nov 28 2014, 10:27 PM
Wait does BROtoro have two characters?
He does. It was a quirk of poor bookkeeping; he asked for a new kid six months after having the first and I didn't notice until today. I'll let him pick which/both to keep, as he desires.

V4 Read-A-Thon: The Reboot
The Burned Handler
Nov 28 2014, 09:49 PM
Oi! You ignored me entirely!
You still have Maria!

V4 Read-A-Thon: The Reboot
I know. It was kinda special rolling it in exact reverse order. xD

V4 Read-A-Thon: The Reboot
Alrighty. Updated the list, too. Upon digging, only five characters remained unclaimed, so I went first-come first-served. Sorry, Doc and Bowser! I'll roll you guys from the unclaimeds after the roll call.

The New New New New New New New New List:


Logs


Yugi: Daniel Vaughan (V4 Start)
Seth: Aaron Hughes (V4 Start)
Un: Saul Fetteralf (V4 Start)
Badb: Joshua Krakowski (V4 Start)
Medic: Trevor Duncan (V4 Start)
Bowser: I owe you one V4 character in a week!
Doc: I owe you one V4 character in a week!


Given the renewed interest, it's roll call time! How this works: if you have a character already assigned, you have the next week to say you are gonna read them. If you don't check in, they go back on the rolling list and may be rolled by someone else. If you come back before that happens and want to pick them up again, that's fine; say so and I'll take them back off the rolling list. This is just to free up characters claimed by handlers who have lost interest and/or left the site.

Roll Call List


Also, quick clarification: I'm gonna no-go trades in this Read-A-Thon, especially so close to the end.

Also also, since that's the V4 Read-A-Thon on hiatus, I went ahead and started one over on Mini for every version besides PV1, which is already covered.

Introduction Thread
Heya, HeartlessMonkey. Welcome to SOTF! Reading through the archives is a really great way to get acquainted with the site and the style of writing; I recommend starting with V4 and V5 to get a feel for the modern style of the game.

You should take a look at the Mini, the chat, and the New Handler's Guide. If you have any questions, feel free to PM me or any other staffer (we have purple names). We hope you have fun here.

EDIT: Dangit! How am I ninjaed within ten minutes of a newcomer turning up? D:

V4 Read-A-Thon: The Reboot
As you wish!

Logs


Ruggahissy: Josie Vernon (V4 Start)

If there's enough revived interest, I'll run a roll call again; I think ~half the people with characters assigned have left the site, and there are only about ten unclaimed characters (stretching to ~35 if you count claimed but incomplete ones).

Current assignments, in case you're wondering if you have one:

Claimed List

Order Of The Stick Mafia Game Thread
It's awfully quiet.

Espi, since you're in something of the hot seat at the moment, may I request your take on the game so far? Who do you read as town or scum? Why? What is your response to NAFT's accusations?

I feel like a few of my other questions are also outstanding, but it's late and I'm mostly trying to kick up some discussion.

Order Of The Stick Mafia Game Thread
Clarification: I did not notice page seven and my previous two posts include no knowledge or awareness of materials posted there.

Order Of The Stick Mafia Game Thread
NAFT
 
MW: Your thoughts on Grim? Your thoughts on Slam?


Grim: I need more information, basically. I wouldn't even say he's necessarily jumpy town if town. He claims to be playing on an instinctual level, and you're doing a lot to tweak someone out there. Granted, I don't think the specific thing he singled out is a very good one, but it is an easy one to settle on instead of less easily articulable reasoning.

Slam: My read on Slam depends on the rules of the game! It's slightly vague at the moment, so I'll go ahead and clarify.

GM: Can I get a ruling on win precedence? Specifically, does the victory of one faction preclude the victory of other factions, or can multiple factions win by completing their victory conditions, even if that completion is not simultaneous?

My opinion is that Jesters are extremely harsh anti-town roles. If, however, a Jester winning would not preclude town victory, I actually quite like Slam's initial offer, because removing a huge element of randomness during the generally-more-arbitrary first day phase will spare us trouble later. I'd say removing a jester as a sure bet is worth a swap for anything below a 50% chance of catching out scum (though of course we can't know the odds) when we're at a point in the game where we have so much leeway.

If the Jester winning would lead to town losing, of course, then his plan is terrible.

Full disclosure: I strongly dislike the role of Jester from a balance perspective, which may be tilting my viewpoints towards favoring the early removal of any such hypothetical player. At present, though, the logic behind Slam's idea checks out with me pending rules clarification.

Order Of The Stick Mafia Game Thread
VysePresident
Nov 26 2014, 07:50 AM
Also, RC brushed against a point I kinda want to address. The main point of interaction is to get information, be it pressuring, getting a clarification, discussing reads, etc. This is really something everybody should be contributing to, to some degree. Doing otherwise gives scum a ridiculous amount of leeway to control Town.

(Also, some advice for the newbies - if you're new and/or overwhelmed, I highly recommend breaking the game into little, connected pieces and adding your thoughts to that. Try and figure people out, and remember that they might well perceive things differently - This is very much a game of empathy & self-awareness. Don't freeze while waiting for the perfect read, because those pretty much don't happen.)
To push this even further: If you really don't have anything to theorize, find some people with stuff that might push you into theorizing and ask them some questions! That keeps the information flowing.

Order Of The Stick Mafia Game Thread
NotAFlyingToy
Nov 25 2014, 06:10 AM
MW: Why has Yugi moved down based on that?
V4 V2 mafia included a super prominent Miller claim, as did several other mafias in the recent past. If Yugi had experience with them, I'd be much more inclined to read his claim that he was joking as a snap excuse rather than the truth. It still could be that, but the claim in V4 V2 falls after the point where he says he gave up, and joking is a pretty random/weak excuse. I still think it's quite sketchy, but it's not the blatant lie it would've been had Yugi read some of the other mafias kicking around the site/finished V4 V2 mafia.

Order Of The Stick Mafia Game Thread
EBWOP: By which I mean I absolutely find him suspicious, just less so than I might have in other circumstances.

Order Of The Stick Mafia Game Thread
Alright. That moves Yugi to mid-low suspicion for me.