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Bastard Mafia Fallout Thread
I do feel like there's a bit of can't-win going on re: wallposts or spree posts. I'm another person that has a lot t say, but I tend to get more of a pass I think in part because of my manner of presenting it (I tend to sorta walk folks through my live-blogging style of catch up). The thing is, there are actual strategic concerns at play in certain situations based on posting style more than content; it's subtle and a lot of folks miss it, but I think it's a fine line to walk and I can't fault anyone for sometimes landing on the hard-to-cut-through end.

Bastard Mafia Fallout Thread
Jan 31 2016, 08:49 PM
Seriously, Murder's hard Town on me was silly enough.
To be fair, that was actually legit. It was also because I didn't understand your claim; I thought you'd claimed regular suicidal until like day three or something, and that was at the root of a lot of cult incompetencies when dealing with you. I was like, "Eh, we'll wait it out and play the spin game once Vyse kicks it," and by the time I figured out that wasn't gonna naturally happen I'd way, way over-committed.

Bastard Mafia Fallout Thread
More complete thoughts to come later!

That said, I want to give special mention to Vyse for catching me instantly. Part of how I play scum is that I tend to have a specific plan for managing each of the people who routinely give me trouble. In this case, Vyse's was "Recruit him night one." Unfortunately, I was busy with RL stuff and so actually didn't realize what he'd claimed until near the end of the phase, and thus didn't really bother managing my image there ("It'll look better if we clashed early," I thought). Then, I didn't realize what form of suicidal he'd claimed until way, way late in the game, which is what kept me believing his ascetic claim. By the time I figured out it might be bunk, it was late enough that it'd be a huge gamble to test.

So yeah. I had a lot of fun shouting blatant lies at people all game.

Bastard Mafia Game Thread
Real talk here: normally I'd fight this to the end but between my last post and now I got some sad news that's affecting my concentration and am really feeling sorta conflicted right now and could probably use going out for the day to clear my head. That's not really fair to do right before deadline, so I'm gonna do this in the way that's hopefully semi-okay-ish for all teams except the one person I'm screwing directly (but that was part of the plan all along and he'd probably do unto me if I managed to wiggle out anyways).

I am cult. Elena is not. Cult tried to recruit Deamon last night and failed, which apparently happens in the situation of targeting non-town. I'm offering that info in tribute to Vyse's total dedication to bringing me down, which has brought me a lot of smiles and which I'd love to see rewarded. Go get 'em, Rorshach, and I have a funny story for you in the post-game thread. And sorry, Deamon; I appreciate you trying to fling mud at Prim with me. Since I'm basically confirming Prim's claim here, I can add that no, Pippin is not cult leader. Thus we also know that Deamon's recruitment failing was not due to Boogie's roleblock, which targeted Pippin.

I'm checking out here for the rest of the phase, but am gonna UNVOTE and VOTE: MYSELF so I'm at least not impeding progress. It's your call if you lynch me or not. If you don't, well...

Posted Image

New General SOTF Discussion Thread
Seth Crimson
Jan 25 2016, 07:53 AM
How do you guys feel about character dissonance? For example how a person looks at themselves versus how others do?
Handled well, I think it's great. That said, it runs into issues super often as a result of SOTF's house style and how that meshes with application.

SOTF generally speaking is told in third person, which means the narrative has some level of distance from a character. It might not be that much distance; D/N's kids, for example, tend to have super strong and distinct voices that seep into even mundane narration. The thing about it, though, is that such distance, minimal though it may be, is still enough that there should be some idea that the character is deluding themselves/an unreliable perspective. This is where it can become really tricky.

To portray a character (even a character who's a really terrible person) in an engaging manner usually requires some level of sympathy--from the author if not from the audience. This becomes even more notable if the character thinks they're not a horrible person; the author has to get into their head and figure out how they make themselves believe what they do and how they keep up the facade. The thing is, from all I've seen this can easily lead the author to not just sympathize with, but actually be unambiguously on the side of their character. Even that's not necessarily bad, but it tends to be a huge warning sign.

See, even if the author's on their character's side, the narrative should not be. If it is, things end up unbecoming in a hurry. What happens when the character has no self-awareness and the author is on their character's side and the narrative is too is that the character's story starts to come off like it's constantly glorifying them (sometimes with occasional halfhearted "But, tee hee, he was doing bad things really" moments where you can tell that it's sorta there to pretend things haven't progressed to the stage they have).

Then there's the other side, where the author doesn't spend that time establishing empathy. Usually this comes from someone wanting to write a player and running into trouble trying to figure out why someone would play; "She's deluded and trying to do the right thing!" is then an attractive option because it means not having to get into really scary headspace and it allows for a lot of possible shifts in perspective/evolutions in narrative. The thing is, in these cases what is missed is that it's really hard to kill lots of people and think you're doing the right thing.

An underdeveloped justification leaves it feeling like nobody's taking the character's perfunctory insistence that they're doing the right thing seriously. This, in turn, can leave it feeling like an obvious sham on every level. It either ends up feeling like the character is lying to themselves (which can be handled well if done intentionally, but actually does benefit a lot from not being jaw-droppingly obvious) or like the character is a massive idiot (which, again, is the sort of trait that should probably be developed intentionally).

There's also the thing that can occur where everyone thinks they're doing the right thing. Now, it's true that almost everyone's the protagonist of their own story, but there's a huge difference between justifying to yourself/minimizing the reprehensibility of your actions and thinking you're doing the right thing, that is to say believing killing a bunch of folks is not only morally justified but actually good.

Have more to say later, maybe, but not really feeling up to that right now.

Bastard Mafia Game Thread
Jan 25 2016, 07:13 AM
Jan 25 2016, 06:47 AM
Also. What was the clue that I lied about my results, MW?
This is a fair question that needs an answer.
A few things:

1. The roleblock. The only suggestion we have that Boogie's power doesn't work comes from Pippin trying to save the day, but even then he's careful. Note his phrasing:
Well that is interesting, given my action still went through last night and I got a result from it.

Then again, if what I suspect about my role is true, that wouldn't matter too much anyway, but still.
It's an extremely wishy-washy way of saying it. Is Pippin saying that his role doesn't matter (in which case... why say that?) or is he saying his being blocked doesn't matter?

2. The entire exchange about color. Prim crumbed cop... but not the right type of cop. Prim's play early on very strongly suggested an awareness of all the factions in play, yet all of a sudden come the day phase Prim knows only about cult. That's really strange given all her play to this point.

3. Building off that last bit? Prim keeps talking about expecting to be killed by scum, despite having a role that... does nothing whatsoever to inconvenience scum. This could suggest that she's lying about detecting only cult (especially combined with the other point), but such a play doesn't strike me as at all Prim's style. Why, then, this focus on scum killing her, despite multiple people suggesting that she's safe? Because it's not as simple as they're making it out to be, and she knows it; she's cult and the spotlight's going to swing that way really hard in short order.

4. Prim is bizarrely certain her role is 100% accurate and non-screwy, claimed a totally normal role and resists any suggestion that her results might be incorrect... despite confirming that she had zero identifying features in the response PM (a super common sign that redirection roles are in play, you know, aside from the multiple redirection roles we've already seen). Why this unshaking certainty? Because the whole thing is made up. There's zero doubt whatsoever for something that should carry a lot of it.

5. Prim claimed and went after me. I knew Prim was crumbing elements of cop at the end of Day Three--in fact, I called it in the thread. If I was cult, it makes zero sense to do anything other than recruit Prim. If I was cult, given Prim's action timeline, that would have had to have happened by Night Three, giving me an entire phase to poke cult into doing something about Prim, which I pretty clearly didn't do.

Bastard Mafia Game Thread
Jan 25 2016, 06:46 AM
Why do you think I am throwing your way, MW? Because you are CULT. I did not get roleblocked by Boogie which is the truth. I know that we need to get rid of the cult leader but I also think it would be a good idea of people would get you lynched because of my result claiming that you are cult. You know, if everyone else votes for me then they will lose another townie. Even mafia knows that the cult is a threat to them.
How do you know what the mafia knows, Prim? And why is your power infallible while Bik's is very much faulty? What's up with your role, anyways; you seem awfully convinced it's normal and reliable given this sort of game.

Bastard Mafia Game Thread
Jan 25 2016, 06:15 AM
We're down to 12 players IIRC, with two scum killed. There have been four or five night phases now(I can't remember exactly how many) and Cult may have started with two members(leader and speaker) We've killed two of those, meaning that right now as many as five out of twelve of us are cult. If we lynch town, that brings us to 11 people. If cult recruits tonight and there's no NK, then 6 out of 11 people are cult and it's game over, town has lost voting majority. If cult recruits tonight and a night kill hits town, that puts them at 6 of 10 and we're even more fucked. If cult recruits tonight and is hit that puts them at 5 of 10 and there's still no town majority unless Gianni shoots cult. That is our absolute best case scenario if we random lynch today.
Nice scare tactics, but crummy math. I'm a very old pro at the deceptive math game, and this is decked out like crazy.

We've had four night phases. That means, if we started with two cultists and saw one recruit a night, that'd be max six cultists, minus two dead, leaves us four left. That's making a lot of assumptions, too; I'd be pretty shocked if cult got to recruit every night with a backup recruiter, even accounting for the monkeywrench that's a usurper.

12-4-1 = 7 townies left if we misfire today. Knock out another for a recruitment and we've got six townies to five cult, and thus still a majority (unless there's another scum faction, in which case it'd actually behoove them to step up and play town's game assuming they believe the rather doomsdayish narrative being spun). But, see, if there is another scum faction then you need literally every townie to vote your way to get a lynch, and since we've got a confirmed townie in Vyse refusing to, you're acknowledging that your train either includes scum or the situation's not as bad as you think.

Meanwhile, if we lose two townies? Bad news. It's probably going to happen with the nightkill anyways, but eh, at least it's not doing scum's job for them.

Also, Doc: How is Prim confirmed? We have a pretty darn solid clue that she lied about her results, and the only one backing her claim is the dude she's been super busily buddying all game. :/

Bastard Mafia Game Thread
So, Prim, you never answered any of my questions. You just keep throwing shade my way, because you're actually scum. It's really interesting that everyone's treating your claim as bulletproof, despite having been caught in obvious lies.

VOTE: Prim

Put simply, your claim is totally bogus. You got countered, and the only one who stood up in your defense was the person you've been busily trying to clear of all suspicion all game, and even then he left himself a super obvious escape clause in case town noticed.

Bastard Mafia Game Thread
Jan 24 2016, 04:55 PM
That's not entirely true, 'cause as you said here.

I'm just going to say what it is anyway.

I am The One Who Understands, Private Investigator. At night, I can target one player to investigate. Upon the conclusion of the night, I will learn if my target is cult aligned or not.

Now you know why I am trying to find out who may be cult. And I know someone who is a part of the cult or may be the cult leader.

You can't see if they're an SK or not. So if there's an SK they wouldn't need to kill you straight away.
We're ignoring the increasingly-obvious holes here then?

I think it's pretty clear by now that Prim has something funky going on/hasn't been quite forthcoming about her role.

Bastard Mafia Game Thread
Jan 24 2016, 01:22 AM
Murder, thoughts on Bik?
Bik's really interesting. I think he'd be a good recruit for a cult looking to diversify or a very sneaky mafia member (or even fake claim thereby) due to his restriction. Only being allowed to hammer = no voting record of merit, ever. It makes him super hard to read in a way that seems potentially desirable. It's also a double-edged sword for scum, which this game has a ton of; his restriction shoves off suspicion, but it also lowers his team's potential vote power (which could be big if there's potential for town to get outnumbered fast). His early play was certainly a bit sketchy to me, so I lean mafia over cult if he is scum, and he's definitely raised a few flags.
Helping scum hunt = good for you.

Particularly since it's my win condition, yes. :P
(Thinking Prim would be cult immune, based on Aura. Not certain, but...hopeful.)

No way Prim's immune with how I read Aura's claim; he implied his powers had kicked in, meaning it was RC's death that triggered him.
Well, there is a chance that I might get recruited by cult tonight or mafia/serial killer might kill me, I still want MW to get lynched.

That's some odd speculation and prioritizing. Why the focus on what our confirmed townies think is a bad idea? Why would an SK kill you? I think probably because you're not being particularly honest.

Also, quick reminder that we don't have Backslash's flip info yet, but do have a strong suggestion she was a non-town faction. I'd say odds are decent we have a small but powerful mafia and she was a member but due to being modkilled we didn't get her flavor to preserve their secrecy.

Also, everyone backing Boogie: Still worth considering he's right in other places, yes?

Bastard Mafia Game Thread
While we're waiting on Penguin's flip:

Prim, can you dump all your thoughts ASAP? If you're telling the truth, I view the odds of you remaining alive and town-aligned tomorrow as incredibly low if we don't get the cult leader. If you're not, as I suspect, then having a trail will make things much easier to pin down.

Mac Porterman
Heya, Darkus, and welcome to SOTF!

Mac is DENIED pending some pretty serious overhaul.

Mac's appearance section is a pretty solid start. I'd like to know how much he weighs, what style he wears his hair in, whether he wears any jewelry, how his posture is. What are a few distinguishing facial features of his? I'd also like to know a bit more about his clothing, ideally what he was wearing on the day of the abduction and what styles he wears in general.

Mac's biography is where we run into some bigger issues. Mac's biography revolves entirely around one thing: his prosthetic arm. Unfortunately, the details of his arm don't mesh with the SOTF universe. SOTF is set a world much like our own, with a few little changes; unlike Battle Royale or The Hunger Games there is no super science in play. If a character isn't someone you could imagine being a fairly typical student at your high school in real life, they probably don't fit the SOTF mold. The level of change required to get the arm situation up to snuff is pretty extreme, and to be totally honest I don't think it's worth the time because the terrorists, as part of their security protocols, confiscate anything electronic from the students, which would absolutely include prosthetic arms.

More than that, what's really interesting to us is who Mac is as a person. What was his life like growing up? Who are his parents? What economic class is he from? How does he get along with his family? When did he develop his interests? How has he changed over the years? Who are his friends? How does he do in school? How does he spend his free time? What does he think about the world?

I'd really suggest giving this guide a read, especially the part labeled "Profile Content" as it deals with the sort of depth and style of information we're looking for. You should also look through some of our Approved Characters to get an idea of what completed biographies look like. Coleen Reagan is a good example of a character with some unusual traits that are still appropriately grounded and who's still solidly fleshed out beyond them.

My big suggesting here for a revamp is to think about Mac as a person, figure out what about his psychology speaks to you and how his life brought him to where he is prior to the start of the game.

Post when you've got Mac retooled, and we'll give him anther look. Thanks!

New General SOTF Discussion Thread
Yep! I standardized the formatting on the V4 pages to make it easy to follow, and may do the same for consistency elsewhere eventually, but nothing's really required. If you have bullet points within your comment, maybe just indent the bullet points so it's clear they're not new comments?

Bastard Mafia Game Thread
Jan 21 2016, 05:40 AM
I might get nabbed by the cult this night phase or killed by the mafia so I would like to see what will happen if Goose can shoot MurderWeasel right now.
This is oddly rushed for such a huge risk to town. Especially since we've actually got two camps here with relatively similar levels of proof. We're sitting at you and Pippin claiming Boogie's power randomly does nothing, and Boogie and I suspecting there's something wrong with your claim. The thing is, I think from an external perspective it's pretty clear which of these factions makes more sense as allied scum.

You've been propping Pippin pretty consistently throughout the game. Boogie and I threw down hard yesterday, and frankly I'd be gunning for him again had he not provided a solidly convincing claim. You're pushing a plan that even Vyse agrees is not a smart decision for town (and I'll remind everyone that Vyse has less than no trust for me this game; this is not new). Why?

Then there's the color thing, which still doesn't line up. You're sure I'm cult, even though you got a pretty generic PM and we know there are lots of misdirection actions in play? That's the only logical way Boogie could have not blocked you, but you couldn't have been affected by the same thing?

Something's very off here. You're pushing an agenda, and one that is not looking after town's best interests.

New General SOTF Discussion Thread
I don't quite follow the last question. Do you mean on the wiki?

Bastard Mafia Game Thread
EBWOP: Hmm, actually, slight complication. Prim would've gotten the no result thing even if recruited later. I'm not sure, then; perhaps she was recruited earlier? Or perhaps someone just messed up. I still put the odds of a cop making it through two consecutive night phases unrecruited at quite low.

Bastard Mafia Game Thread
My thoughts:

I am, in fact, not cult.

I find the odds of Boogie's role doing nothing at all fairly low, even given the wonkiness of this game.

Well that is interesting, given my action still went through last night and I got a result from it.

Then again, if what I suspect about my role is true, that wouldn't matter too much anyway, but still.

This feels like it deserves some clarification, because if Pippin's role is unblockable then Boogie may well be telling the truth and something sneaky going on elsewhere. It's also an oddly cagey way of phrasing things; Pippin is both backing Prim's claim of not being blocked up and distancing himself from potential splashback if Boogie flips roleblocker.

One dangling question from Prim, however, is the colors. It's still an incredibly odd and specific thing to point out, and it makes me wonder what gave with Prim's play pattern. A cop that only sniffs out cult also seems unusual to me. In fact, only the fact that I'm not cult keeps me from thinking Prim is in fact a mafia cop; as mentioned, mafia is after cult as well.

A quick question for Prim, as well: Did your results PM specifically name me as cult (like "MW is cult") or was it more generic ("cult" or "your target is cult")? We have an awful lot of redirection abilities in play, and getting more specific info here will at least let me figure out what might be going on.

Also, scum would be stupid to shoot Prim.

Cult is your worst enemy too.

That's true to the degree that it makes me wonder what's up with Prim.

Boogie, if you are indeed the roleblocker. I guess you were possibly made to block other people if it didn't work on your targets. This is just a guess at what might have happened to your role.

That's an awfully convenient explanation!
If someone has the role of framing someone as cult. I can't really believe that.

Why not?
Doc via Vyse
I am inclined to believe that MW is Cult. Cult overwrites previous flavor text, according to Frogue's kill-flavor, so I think it's fairly safe to shoot Murder right now. If he's telling the truth, then we should end up with confirmed town in Namira, or at least confirmed non-Mafia.

Actually, if I die Elena dies too, so that's a really bad choice given crunch time.
You = unlikely because of suspicion pushed your way by Namira, but unsure. If she's Cult, you are unlikely. (Or new recruit?)

See... this is what's setting me off. If Prim dumped stuff yesterday, when I asked, we'd be in a different boat. As it is? I'd say we have really decent odds cult nabbed Prim overnight for being an obvious cop, and is now burning her to waste a phase. It's what I'd've done in their shoes. Prim's role was somewhat tricky to figure out from the perspective of town. From scum PoV, it'd've been a cinch.

So basically, here's my deal: I'm not cult. I think Prim likely is, possibly in tandem with Pippin. Everything there lines up perfectly. Prim was roleblocked night two, as claimed. Pippin was roleblocked last night. They're backpedaling incredibly hard because Boogie's claim exposes the entire situation and catches out two members at once since Prim mistakenly cleared Pippin on a night she was blocked.

Bastard Mafia Game Thread
Jan 18 2016, 03:52 PM
I have no communication with Elena outside this thread.

Bastard Mafia Game Thread
Jan 18 2016, 03:45 PM
Lovers, or Lover Masons?
I got her role name and color so I imagine she got mine. She's The Absent Minded College Kid.