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SOTF v4 Mafia, Game Thread
Asking for an explanation doesn't mean I'm obligated to accept said explanation. Stop trying to make out that I put you in a corner. I'm clearly not the only one who found the reasoning dodgy.

SOTF v4 Mafia, Game Thread
Slamexo
Mar 30 2012, 03:13 AM
Slamexo
Mar 29 2012, 12:36 PM
I assumed since we stopped having super kill everything hitman then stuff happened and no I didn't think it through.
That was the basis of my original thought; obviously I can't guarentee that decoy isn't using a super kill everything Hitman, but I assumed we stopped doing using after it became obvious it was somewhat OP, like how we discourage allowing role PM quoting these days. Then I went from 'no more hitman' to 'no more designated killer' to 'no-one to roleblock'; not an unreasonable leap of logic, despite the quality of it.

Satisfied?
Pretty much not, no. That leap of logic, as you describe it, just really don't work. I can see you getting to 'no more designated killer', but not that there's nobody to roleblock, period. Even if there isn't a specific person that does the killing, somebody has to handle the kill and hence be blockable. I really don't like how you've responded to all of this. To begin with I wasn't sure, but the more you talk, the more convoluted your story is getting.

Vote: Slamexo

SOTF v4 Mafia, Game Thread
But then where did the initial thought come from when there's no evidence (either from this game or historically) that the mafia would be constructed in that way?

SOTF v4 Mafia, Game Thread
Slamexo
Mar 29 2012, 05:13 PM
I'm being grumpy? I thought I was being relatively civil this game.

And what, can't a guy give advice to the moderator that their text may be giving some people an advantage when they're supposed to be neutral? Forgive me if I want to fight on fair terms.

Anyway, you people will have to give me more reasons for why I'm drawing suspicion to myself than a lack of thought on whether or not the mafia can be roleblocked.
See... my issue with the statement was in the phrasing. Like, it was one of the main points of the post that you made it in. Saying that you didn't think it through is questionable to me, unless you're saying you make entire (pretty long) posts without even thinking about what you're saying. It really does imply you know more than you're letting on.

SOTF v4 Mafia, Game Thread
JOAT is basically a role that has several one shot abilities, usually something along the lines of kill/protect/roleblock/investigate.

SOTF v4 Mafia, Game Thread
Mm... that makes sense. Hayley's killer expressed remorse (or something to that effect) over killing Bridget.

SOTF v4 Mafia, Game Thread
...Since when has that ever been a regular set up? Mafia 9 out of 10 times has a designated killer. They work AS a team, but somebody still has to do the dirty work. That's a huge assumption to make and I don't see any evidence to corroborate it.

I am strongly tempted to vote you right now.

SOTF v4 Mafia, Game Thread
I'm curious as to where you're getting 'the only real role now that our vig is dead who can be blocked in such a manner is the serial killer' from.

Kenneth Harrison
Okay, good job. Sorry this took me a little while to get to.

APPROVED

Kenneth Harrison
Okay, that's looking a lot better, but there are still one or two aspects I'd like to see trimmed.

- I'd quite honestly like you to take Ken's Asperger's out altogether. Like I said, it wouldn't take much reworking for him to just be socially awkward and a loner. As it stands I'm not comfortable with it still being in the profile. It's not an aspect that is automatically deniable, but at this moment in time I'm not going to allow it.

- You altered what was really the wrong part of the academic achievements at a young age. I like the subsequent deterioration in Ken's abilities, but I'd prefer if he wasn't aceing every test when he was a kid.

Kenneth Harrison
Kenneth is temporarily denied, and it's probably going to take quite an extensive rewrite for him to be workable.


Quote:
 
Name: Kenneth Harrison
Gender: Male
Age: 17
Grade: 12
School: Aurora High School
Hobbies and interests: Muay Thai, heavy metal, playing guitar, academics, writing

Appearance: Kenneth stands at 6'3" and weighs 138 pounds, making him look skinny and gangly, though recently he has begun to fill out and develop more muscles due to taking up Muay Thai. ((Okay, first thing's first; 6'3" and 138 lbs is not the physique of somebody who has 'begun to fill out'. I can understand those measurements if Ken was still gangly and skinny, but he should be weighing more right now. I'm about 6 feet tall and was 135 lbs at one stage - believe me when I say that I was skinny. Ken's height/weight lead me to think of somebody who is unhealthily underweight, not developing muscle.)) His hair is dark blonde, greasy and shoulder-length - he has been trying to grow it long for months, but much to his frustration, it won't grow any more. Instead, it just gets messy and curls out everywhere, not helped by the fact that he rarely remembers to brush it, let alone style it. His facial hair is thin, wispy and a very light blonde, only visible in strong sunlight. His eyes are squinty and greyish-blue, and have large dark rings under them, making him look as if he hasn't slept in months. In point of fact, he probably hasn't. ((That second part is unnecessary, as it's neither tonally fitting, nor should it be true. Nobody doesn't sleep for months.)) His skin is pale from spending so much time indoors, and his face is covered in spots which he can never be bothered to clean up. He has thin lips and a long, aquiline nose, and large, sticking-out ears.

((Since I mentioned it above and it's going to crop up quite a bit, I'm just going to drop this here; there are quite a few issues with the tone. The profiles are supposed to, more or less, read as if they were written by an impartial third party, so they need to be mostly formal. Quite often, there's little asides or jokes in the profile, which aren't tonally appropriate. Keep that in mind.))

Kenneth almost exclusively wears old, soiled T-shirts, jeans and shorts - he hates wearing new clothes. ((Why? This never comes up again, and it's quite significant that he apparently voluntarily chooses to dress like a hobo)) You'd be hard pressed to find something in his wardrobe that isn't ripped to hell and covered in mysterious stains. He is rarely seen without an item of apparal known to him as his battlejacket, but known to everyone else as "that smelly denim vest with way too many patches on it". But don't worry, he'll wash it any month now. ((Watch your tone here, and once again, this doesn't come up anywhere else. If Kenneth barely washes his clothes, there has to be a reason for it... and 9 times out of 10 I'd suspect that his parents would at least make sure he wasn't going around completely filthy)) He also has a tattoo of the Motorhead logo on his right upper arm and a tattoo of a skull on the back of his neck. ((It's illegal for a minor (under 18) to get a tattoo in the state of Washington, and out of state, Kenneth would almost definitely have had to get written permission from his parents. Please either elaborate or remove this))

Biography: Kenneth was born in Houston, Texas, the son of Andrew and Claire Harrison. Though not exactly rich, the family was comfortably well-off - his father worked in the oil business as an "exploration manager" (whatever that was) ((The part in parentheses is inappropriate tonally)), and his mother worked as an accountant. He and his parents have their differences, of course - Kenneth never particularly looked up to them as role models, and as fairly old parents (Claire gave birth to him when she was 35), he often considers their morality obsolete - he is at least thankful that they took the time to raise him, and he does care about them. ((You don't really expand upon why Ken doesn't look up to his parents at all)) His sisters Emma and Rebecca (two years younger than him), not so much. Why? Well, we'll find out later. ((Tonal issue, cut that last bit))

As a young boy, it soon came to his parents' notice that Kenneth was somewhat odd. He kept to himself most of the time, and could happily sit for hours in a corner lining cars up or putting things in and out of boxes. He carried one particular pencil around with him everywhere, even in the bath. He would repeat things that he'd heard on television or in movies to himself out loud and laugh crazily, just because he liked the way they sounded. Eventually, when he was 6, Kenneth was diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome. ((I'm really, really sketchy on this. Combined with some of the stuff that crops up later in the profile, it really looks as though you're trying to use Ken's Asperger's as an excuse for him to have no qualms about playing the game, which is something that we heavily disapprove of. What's stopping Ken from just being socially awkward and strange without having Asperger's? That would work just as well))

Kenneth didn't understand the ramifications of that, but what he did understand was that he was doing extremely well in school. Having learned to read at a very early age, Kenneth had proceeded to read every book he could get his hands on, and thus by the time he was in 1st grade, he was well ahead of everyone academically. ((This is a little shaky. Being a big reader is fine, but as a first grade kid, how would he have access to books that could launch him ahead academically? There's nothing wrong with Ken being intelligent, but this is excessive)) He got perfect marks on every test, and was frequently bored in class because he was so above everyone else (a failed attempt to teach himself algebra in 4th grade notwithstanding). The problem was, he didn't have a lot of friends. Not because he didn't want to make friends, but because he couldn't - he alienated them with his odd speech patterns and occasional bizarre habits. His classmates made sure he'd never forget the time he humped the climbing frame trying to "get jollies" in 2nd grade. ((Um... what? How would a second grader know anything about that type of thing?)) Because of this, Kenneth ended up taking refuge in academics, dedicating himself to them to try and make up for the social wasteland he'd found himself in.

Over the next few years, Kenneth's father had to move around a lot because of his job. Until Kenneth came to Aurora High School, he'd been in four different schools, and he wasn't particularly happy in any of them. He continued to slide further and One ((*one)) in particular, when he lived in Portland, Oregon, was an utter nightmare. The student body was mostly - how can I put this? - special. The teachers were absolutely useless, having no passion whatsoever for the subjects they taught and refusing to engage the students at all. But most of all, there were four particular boys who took delight in tormenting Kenneth every way they could. He'd never forget the day when one of them pushed him off the top of the climbing frame, and he hit his head on a bar on the way down. Kenneth was in the hospital with a concussion for quite a while. ((Dual issues here. The first part about the school has tone issues, and the second part... were there not any repercussions for what happened to Ken? A hospitalisation is a serious issue and would almost certainly be followed up on by the school, regardless of their standards)) During his two years at that school, Kenneth never made one real friend. On top of this, his parents fought constantly, always seeming on the verge of divorce, but always staying together. His sisters, who had once looked up to their big brother, began to think of him as a "weirdo" and distanced themselves from him as much as possible. ((I'd like to see more about this familial conflict. What were the reasons behind it? Why did his sisters grow apart from him? I'm also not a big fan of how they're basically treated like a single entity. Are the sisters in step about everything?))

Despite all this, he wasn't totally unhappy. Kenneth had always loved music. His father was a music lover too - he played the saxophone in a few local jazz bands, and would play Kenneth selections from his extensive collection of vinyl whenever he could. Kenneth originally learned to play piano, but in 5th grade, he traded his piano in for an electric guitar. ((Why? There's no explanation for this.)) He practiced as much as he could, and soon became excellent at it. He dedicated himself to his guitar the same way he dedicated himself to academics, or, indeed, to anything that caught his interest, whether that was Dungeons and Dragons, toy collecting or video game programming. Most of these interests came and went, but guitar and academics were the two constants in his life. He liked that - after all, all he wanted was to have something constant in his life of moving around.

So, when Kenneth moved to Aurora High School in 9th grade, his knack for making friends was more or less atrophied. He became something of a loner, never sure how to approach people or what to say to them - particularly in group situations, where he just clams up. ((You shift from past to present tense mid-sentence here)) At first, he was unhappy with this, but gradually he came to accept his situation as a perpetual loner, knowing that there was little he could do to change it. In fact, he came to prefer it that way. After all, if he came to like someone, he'd end up having to move to another school, if his past experience was any guide. ((Being such a huge loner is another red flag. It looks like it's designed to prevent Ken having attachments to his fellow students, and thus once again have no problem with playing the game. We prefer not to see that kind of thing. It's much more fun to have characters snap and start playing rather than being able to tell they're going to play from the start))

But that still didn't help him any. His parents still fought, and his sisters now seemed to actively despise him, never having a kind word to say to him and always ready to tell him he was a freak who'd never amount to anything. They became pretty and popular girls, while Kenneth got stuck with spots, a skinny and pathetically weak body (he never did exercise - he'd rather play video games or guitar) and an utter lack of friends. ((Once again there's little explanation for his sisters coming to dislike him so much. I can make a guess, but I shouldn't have to - that detail should already be there)) Bullying, as ever, was an issue. Two of his tormentors from his last school had followed him to Aurora High School, and where most people had outgrown the childish pleasures of simple violence at that age, they never lost it. Every day in 9th grade was torture. It was only a matter of time before Kenneth lashed out and tried to stab one of them with his beloved pencil. ((This is a very contrived set up, in all honesty. Why would two bullies follow him to Aurora? What are the odds that three people from the same school would move to the same state at the same time and wind up at the same new school? This is really overblown.))

He got sent to about 10,000 hours of therapy for that. ((Tone issue)) Gradually, Kenneth began to work through some of his issues - his frustration at being unable to make friends, and the inferiority complex that had developed from being constantly told by fellow students and his sisters that he was a loser and a weirdo and a spaz. ((Without elaboration, his sisters' dislike of him still seems completely irrational and out of nowhere)) Kenneth made a few friends. They weren't the lifetime companions that everybody else seemed to have, more of a loose aggregation of fellow freaks and geeks, but it was better than nothing. Unfortunately, this wouldn't help him get a girlfriend. By the time he reached 12th grade, he was still a virgin. Worse than that, he'd never had a proper girlfriend, or even kissed a girl. Girls, at that age, were still alien creatures to him. ((You seem to make a really big deal out of this. Perhaps clarify that it's a big personal issue for Kenneth as opposed to somebody being a virgin in 12th grade being universally devastating? :P))

During this time, Kenneth was mentored by his English teacher, who encouraged him to use writing as an outlet for his frustrations and fears. ((Bear in mind we have a roster of NPC teachers. You might want to investigate that for extra detail)) He found that he enjoyed it very much, and to the despair of his teachers, he spent most of his time in class jotting down stories or thinking about riffs he was developing rather than doing work. Kenneth's grades began to slip - as he was so far ahead academically before, he'd never had to study much or even do much work, but the curriculum had caught up with his knowledge. It took him some time to adjust his brain to this new way of working, but he soon came around to it. While he wasn't the consistent A+ student he was before, and never would be, he at least got comfortable As and Bs. Despite this, he always had a lingering sense of resentment about the fact that he wasn't particularly exceptional in any way now. Kenneth also took up Muay Thai as part of his therapy, and soon became much stronger and more physically fit. It originated as simple catharsis, and he intended to quit once all his issues were worked out, but he soon found he enjoyed it. He didn't even have to pretend his tormentors' faces were printed on the punching bag any more. ((This is quite sketchy to me as well. I know a lot of therapies look for outlets, but I'm pretty sure that doesn't normally extend to encouraging patients to take up a violent martial art. This looks like an excuse to have Kenneth be a misfit loner, yet still have fighting ability. Also the timeline confuses me, as his appearance suggests Ken started Muay Thai recently, yet the flow of the biography implies Ken has been doing it for three years. Basically you jump around a lot, please try and keep the flow consistent.))

If Kenneth was going to be alone, he decided, he would make solitude a virtue. He developed a sarcastic and cynical personality, always ready with a sardonic quip, which he put to good use at the 10th grade talent show with his stand-up comedy routine, for which he came in third place. ((This comesout of nowhere. People quite rarely just 'decide' this type of thing)) But it wasn't just to amuse his classmates - at first, it was a device to drive them away, but to his surprise, they liked it. His reputation at school is now one of two halves; his classmates respect him for his intelligence and humour, but they tend to dislike him as a person because of his seemingly willful loneliness and lack of social grace. ((You need to be careful with this kind of statement. It ventures into passive godmoding, that is, you're more or less dictating how other characters respond to him by saying there's only two responses.))

Kenneth also began to develop a personal philosophy. Raised Catholic, Kenneth soon began to doubt religion, wondering what kind of malicious God would cause atrocities like wars and famines and natural disasters to happen. Finding this impossible to reconcile with his belief in determinism, he came up with the viewpoint that God is like a child burning ants under a magnifying glass - not deliberately cruel, just uncaring. Despite all this, he refuses to get depressed about it, having seen from experience that getting depressed will get him nowhere. His outlook on life could perhaps best be described by the mantra he came up with: "Life sucks. I will die. Get over it." ((This is also very abrupt - there's very little indication of this type of outlook throughout the rest of the biography, and that final section is yet another personal red flag. This 'philosophy' comes up looking very much like Ken's a nihilist, which... you've guessed it, makes it look like you're prepping Ken to be a player from the outset.))

By 12th grade, Kenneth was relatively stable and had begun to adjust. He'd finally found his social niche, as the lead guitarist and main lyricist of local death metal band Valley of Slaughter. They weren't great, and he knew it, but he loved playing with them anyway, just because he'd finally found a group of people who could share his interests, and an outlet for some of his more... colourful writing. He was finally coming into his figure, feeling less awkward and gangly than he had previously. He plans to go to an Ivy League university and study History, assuming that Valley of Slaughter never takes off (they've been rejected by 7 different record labels, but they're not giving up yet). Though he knows he'll always have some issues to work out (such as, for example, that fact that his goddamn rustbucket piece-of-shit car won't start - it only cost $800, and looks like it) ((Tone issue)), he is generally hoping that his life will be good in the future. But he still doesn't know what they did with his pencil. ((This is another jump around, as you've gone from talking about how Ken is generally to a timeline once more. You've also said he's into music, but there was nothing to indicate an enthusiasm for death metal, so this is again something that needs expanding upon))

Advantages: Kenneth has been practicing Muay Thai for 4 years, and generally keeps himself in good physical condition, working out for at least an hour a day. ((This is another inconsistency. Once more, if Ken has been doing Muay Thai for that long, he definitely wouldn't 'just be filling out', in actual fact he'd probably be much better built. I'd honestly prefer the Muay Thai were scaled back or removed entirely, in any case. You also don't mention that Ken works out in the biography)) While he is not particularly experienced in the world, he is quite widely read on a variety of topics, and can apply this knowledge if need be. ((This is too vague. As it stands, this basically looks like a catch all for Ken to have as much knowledge about a given subject as he requires at any given time. Please either clarify or remove this)) A pragmatist, Kenneth is prepared to do whatever he has to do to survive. ((This puts the nail in the 'pre-made player' coffin. As it stands I'm looking at Ken and am pretty much guessing he's going to try and play immediately. Please remove this.))
Disadvantages: While Kenneth is quite a bit stronger than he was, he still suffers from a lack of stamina, and will get tired easily. ((This doesn't make much sense. Muay Thai is physically demanding, and if he works out for an hour each day, there's no way he wouldn't be fit)) He also has a tendency to over-analyse a situation, and is hesitant about actually making a decision - he has a perpetual fear of making a snap decision that he will regret. While his theoretical knowledge is strong, his lack of experience in the real world could cost him. ((This is a soft-touch weakness, as it's effectively cancelled out by the knowledge caveat. He still knows all this stuff, presumably about survival, and you've already said he can 'apply this knowledge if need be')) Most crippling of all is Kenneth's lack of social skills, which could cost him dearly in the cutthroat game of alliances and relationships.




I know this is a lot of edits, but that's what I feel you'll need to change to make Kenneth more workable. Let me know when you're done.

Kenneth Harrison
Hi there. Before I get started on a critique, I'd like to ask you to make sure your profile matches the template, as there are some unnecessary line breaks and you've changed the name of one of the headings. It might seem like I'm nitpicking here, but since profiles eventually wind up on our wiki, it makes the staff's job a lot easier if we don't have to correct any formatting issues whilst we're putting them up there.

Thanks, let us know when you've done that.

The Mafia Waiting List
Might be better off making a separate topic for that, cheshire, so as to not clog the waitlist.

SOTF v4 Mafia, Game Thread
Nope. Every time I've seen it, the lyncher just WINS when they successfully lynch their target. Flailing for a governer.

SOTF v4 Mafia, Game Thread
MurderWeasel
Mar 21 2012, 11:50 AM
UNVOTE

Okay, yeah, you have my attention. Uh, everyone, let's not vote for Inky, yeah? I'm down for plan zap Aura to test now, because if Aura's telling the truth, Inky is scum, but if Inky is telling the truth, really bad things probably do happen if we lynch him. ><
I'd like to see how Aura flips. If he IS Thea, then I think we can agree there's basically no possible way that Inky can be Tiffany, right?

SOTF v4 Mafia, Game Thread
Well..

I'm going to assume Tiffany dying = Brook flips out and starts killing. Interesting claim... not 100% sure I'm on board with it.

SOTF v4 Mafia, Game Thread
Can we get a vote count? This is getting confusing.

SOTF v4 Mafia, Game Thread
Way to split the lynch...

How about we lynch Aura, see if he's telling the truth about being a lyncher or just desperate scum, and THEN decide what to do about Inky? Lynching a lyncher does NOT hurt the town.

SOTF v4 Mafia, Game Thread
saying "Oh people who want to lynch might be lynchers" is pure obfuscation, especially when none of the people (Slam, Weasel or myself) you referred to had been been making a concerted effort to lynch any particular person. Bringing up 'oh people might be lynchers' in the absence of any evidence of a specific person being targeted is unhelpful, because it's pure speculation, completely ungrounded, and derails genuine discussion. Why not just say that every person angling for a lynch ever 'might be a lyncher'?

And lynchers are third party, nailing a lyncher makes little difference in the grand scheme of things. They don't kill people like serial killers, so they're just a floating vote 'since killing lynchers, in my opinion, simply helps the Mafia out.' - makes little sense.

I'm not quite sure why you're calling what I brought up groundless. It's attempted discreditation of my points without actually addressing said points. I made a clear argument, and it's not because of an 'empty post', it's because of the tells within it. The post being without much substance was just the start.

SOTF v4 Mafia, Game Thread
Well. It's my option #2. I'm not letting Laur off the hook, but we're not getting turnover in that direction.

Unvote, Vote: Aura Master Fox