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| Character Progression & Leveling | ||
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| Topic Started: Nov 14 2015, 11:44 PM (501 Views) | ||
| Jance | Nov 14 2015, 11:44 PM Post #1 | |
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Mega Venusaur
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How would folks most like for their characters to progress through the world? Currently we've moved from having multiple levels for each of a character's pokemon to a single Character Level thus raising all pokemon the character has to that single level. This is essentially expanding on the MPL system we introduced a few years ago. How do you feel about the idea of Character Levels? Do you like keep track of multiple pokemon levels or do you prefer just one level to keep track of? Do you think we should even bother with levels and base evolution and battling more on the story like in the TV series? As for myself I like the idea of the Character Levels, but I'm biased as I came up with the original idea. Still I hate the tediousness of having to keep track of 100 different pokemon levels at a time. I would like to amend the Character Level system to be more like the original EXP system we had with individual pokemon where you'd need X amount of EXP before you leveled and you gained EXP for every post you made, for each battle you participated in, and so on. Achievements could still be a thing that people would earn and would get bonus experience for earning. The idea of Advanced Characters was brought up as well in the discussion thread. This would be a character you could create that was more advanced than your basic starting character with their level 5 starting pokemon or some such. The Advanced Character would start out at a higher level and so many starting pokemon, items and zenni. Advanced Characters could be event earned with starter and items received during the special event. Also we've mulled around various ideas for further character development beyond just leveling. Characters could have their own stats, their own HP and such and can take damage just like a pokemon. Characters could even die or 'faint' if their HP hits 0. Characters could have their own specialization making them perform better at certain things than other characters. If your character wants to focus on breeding they could choose a Breeder specialization and get various perks and bonuses related to breeding pokemon. Bad guy characters could choose a Thief specialization giving them perks and bonuses when involved in nefarious activities. I've thought a Reputation system could be interesting in which characters would earn a reputation based on their actions taking during their journey which could affect their interactions with others throughout the region. Edited by Jance, Nov 15 2015, 12:23 AM.
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| Maverick | Nov 15 2015, 08:49 AM Post #2 | |
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"How many assholes we got on this ship anyhow?"
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My internet is being weird so lets try this again... I liked the blanketed leveling idea from the start, but I also have several hundred pokemon in Floyd's PC, a character that's been around for a decade. Where that becomes a problem is perspective of the canon timeline. We're loosely adhering to real time progression. One year in the real world is equal to one year in Legacy give or take something since we have to skip over chunks of time to make this time-elapse work. It's that skipping through the course of a year that you logically know that your character isn't just sitting back in the recliner - he's doing something. By forcing everything to level, you assume he's a full time trainer and doing something, be it training or collecting. On the other hand, you could also declare that during these off periods your person has a real job and is making a living somehow and that would explain why he's not progressing at - meaning it's also logical for him to only have three complete adventures a year. Enough rambling on that - if I had a choice between the two, I'd compromise. Let's assume we actually say 1 year = 1 year on legacy. What are you doing with your time and what do you get out of it? I'll propose a new system that might compensate for that and allow the player to choose how those blank periods were spent. There's 365 days in the average year, that's 365 opportunities for you to do something - some of which are missed out on due to lack of modding and RP opportunities. At the end of the year, you could look at all of the new threads you had created during that time (you would have to bring them to a close for this to work). What did you earn? How many levels, how many items, etc. Subtract those from 365 and you have a number you can do something with. Convert that to either levels, or cash meaning you were either training or working. The only problem I'm seeing with the above is that you are tracking individual levels again and you could technically not RP the entire year and still collect. Now for other stuff. I never really liked it but a lot of boards do the application thing for new characters. It's so widespread it's expected...so we're weird in that we don't do it. Why not join on the band wagon - it would give new members that bit of personal attention that lets them know we're not jerks. It also eliminates questions about what kind of character they want to create and gives you an opportunity to apply for an advanced character. New characters get X items. Advanced characters get X items if you meet X criteria. Same goes with non-human characters - the application gives us an opportunity to determine how any weird abilities work and what balances them out (you can be a standard human plus X, but have to give up X to keep a balance). I love the idea of HP and stats...but it's hard enough to keep track of all that during pokemon battles without adding in your character's stats. I just don't see it being popular. I do like the idea of customizing your characters path to receive bonuses in your specialized area. |
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| Fordy | Nov 15 2015, 12:45 PM Post #3 | |
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ain't no new thing
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pokemon take three stars to level up | |
541 ![]() oh! sweet nuthin'APL: 5 | ||
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| Jance | Nov 16 2015, 01:28 AM Post #4 | |
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Mega Venusaur
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@Fordy So what is the 3 start system? Think that was before my time here. Is that just a pokemon earns a star every time they win a battle or something and after 3 they level up? @Mav Hmm, now I'm a bit confused. Are you trying to define what a player should be earning level and item wise on average in a real life year or something? |
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| Maverick | Nov 16 2015, 06:28 AM Post #5 | |
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"How many assholes we got on this ship anyhow?"
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You gotta look over me, I tend to ramble. All these blanketed leveling systems are meant to be catch alls so you can RP with your favorites but if you needed something special it would still be useful. What I was saying was a round-about way of explaining all those events in a character's lifespan that you aren't RPing every instance of and trying to explain why the blanketed system sorta explains that - sure, you might be training something, but not everything. The 365 point thing was my mind trying to rationalize something that doesn't matter. |
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| Fordy | Nov 16 2015, 10:36 AM Post #6 | |
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ain't no new thing
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that's exactly what it was, basically. i'm down to go THAT simple, but i think we could handle going with numbers too simplicity is key. but i do kind of want each pokemon to have its own level also down with gexp or whatever it's called now. most posts get 1 star, some get 2, occasionally a 3 star post Edited by Fordy, Nov 16 2015, 10:57 AM.
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541 ![]() oh! sweet nuthin'APL: 5 | ||
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| FuzzyMittenz | Nov 16 2015, 07:58 PM Post #7 | |
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Pidgey
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How would folks most like for their characters to progress through the world? Currently we've moved from having multiple levels for each of a character's pokemon to a single Character Level thus raising all pokemon the character has to that single level. This is essentially expanding on the MPL system we introduced a few years ago. How do you feel about the idea of Character Levels? Do you like keep track of multiple pokemon levels or do you prefer just one level to keep track of? Do you think we should even bother with levels and base evolution and battling more on the story like in the TV series? _________________________ Character progression and leveling: First impressions: - My initial vote would be to scrap the concept of Character Levels, or at least heavily modify it. I think that one of the fundamental facets of the Pokemon series is grinding. It's representative of the bond between Pokemon and Trainer, and even if we did away with "damage" in the traditional sense and focused more on RP in that aspect, there should be a representation of how long a Pokemon has been with a trainer, which is what it's particular level was meant to represent (in my opinion). I say we keep Pokemon levels. (On that note, the concept of trying to do a "Free-Form Moves System" that would allow for people to just describe what the move does, and the effect, instead of using a damage calculation....that's an interesting thought. Will touch on it in the appropriate thread.) Evolution, I absolutely think that individual Pokemon should have individual levels. Profile maintenance is something that is almost required in any other forum RPG on the net. One of the founding tenets of the game was that it is better to find Pokemon that you want and then raise them...if any Pokemon captured is as strong as the rest of my party by default, what point is there to "train" a Pokemon? I understand that it gets to be a lot of work to update and keep track of multiple Pokemon. There is a simple solution: Don't have that many Pokemon. With that being said, a three star system sounds like a great starting point. If one or more Pokemon is used in a fight, they get a minimum of .25 stars. Generally speaking, the absolute maximum that a Pokemon could get for a single fight would be 2 stars (given for exceptionally well played or well thought out battles). Partial or whole stars might even be given for -losses-, so long as the player takes the loss in stride and in play. Three stars = a level. We could have the Star system take care of Evolutions, as well. If a Pokemon is at a level that is high enough to evolve, the PC could choose to continue to level the Pokemon (3 stars), or go the extra mile and really focus on that Pokemon to help it get to the level necessary where it could evolve (5 stars). POKEMON THAT REQUIRE STONES/SPECIAL ITEMS TO EVOLVE: Uncertain. Stones seem to be a pretty "easy to adopt" system, so long as the stones are relatively rare. However, Special Items are a little different for me. I'm uncertain why a King's Rock would be required for an evolution, but we could still require it. Or, we could say that for these Pokemon, you have an option. Either: 5 stars + the required special item or 10 stars + Moderator approval. POKEMON THAT REQUIRE TRADING IN ORDER TO EVOLVE: This feature seems to be obsolete in a RP environment. The original system was designed to promote interaction between Gameboy players. I think that we could remove any need for trading in order to evolve a Pokemon. |
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| Tsunami | Nov 16 2015, 11:20 PM Post #8 | |
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Pidgey
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Hey guys, Im Tsunami I was a member here back in 2005-06. I was asked by Mittenz/DilutedEmotions to come help out with the issues you guys are having. This place was so important to me as a teenager and Im happy to do all I can to help it stay alive. I write professionally (though not always fiction) so I can advise or help write things if you need. I also work in research and have written laws, so Im very good at making rules, thinking of loopholes and overthinking everything. Im here for Legacy. Use me. First thing. Im going to be so candid here. Let go of the system you made. Dont look at it as yours but as the sites, and then think of whether it works or not. I feel like that was an issue in its original roll-out. It didnt really seem like it was for the players, and when the players brought up their (reasonable) issues with it they were pretty summarily dismissed. It alienated quite a few of our vets, it seems like. Changing the character leveling system and how Pokmon are leveled is great--if youre planning on a restart. Undoing years of effort is begging your players to quit in droves. Dont do that, again! Haha. Anyway, I actually like the idea of scaling Pokemon to their trainers. Its a little more cinematic and strategic, and it mirrors the anime in that just caught Pokmon can fight against other Pokmon immediately no matter how young or what area. This suggests its the skill of the trainer rather than the inherent strength of Pokmon that prevails. Kind of poetic. That said, everything that a player does should count for experience towards leveling up. Whether its a canon thread or free form thread. Everything that advances the character should advance character progression. Even moving from place to place or basic maintenance of Pokmon should get a point or two. Whether a trainer is a badge-pursuing common kid or just walks around the countryside trying to discover and translate ancient runes, theyre developing and participating. In addition we should encourage our players to make different characters and walk different paths than all 8 badges victory road POKEMON LEAGUE CHAMPION. That road is long and tedious and if you look at the manga and anime, most trainers dont complete it. Same here. There should be a ton of paths to walk. None but one lead to the Pokemon League. Ill say more in the Story section. In the end, we need to strike a balance between something thats possible for mods to keep up with and something that caters to player interests. Im imagining were starting a more adult game, so I agree about added trainer health and stats. With a story made for characters who arent 10, we need to be prepared for the reality of Pokemon being used as weapons. Reputation could be good, but I wouldnt put it on a light/dark spectrum if youre wanting a complex game. I mean, do you gain good points or evil points for leaving a building to burn even though there are innocent people and Pokemon inside because a cell of terrorists are with them? More realistically, people may hear of that--giving the character a reputation from that event--and some people will find that positive and other negative. That will require mod-played NPCs to make decisions about NPC reactions and log them for other mods who play them, I suppose. Anyway, thats all for now. |
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| Fordy | Nov 17 2015, 12:50 AM Post #9 | |
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ain't no new thing
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i was just thinking about something like this earlier, so i'll come back to this tomorrow |
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541 ![]() oh! sweet nuthin'APL: 5 | ||
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| Jance | Nov 17 2015, 01:50 PM Post #10 | |
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Mega Venusaur
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The application process could be an interesting idea. I wouldn't do anything too strict but it could be like the old my home and lab posts where you essentially define your character's start. It could also be where you pick your starting pokemon, either from the 18 starters or from a rotating list of available non-starters, or they could make an appeal for some other pokemon as their starter in their application. They could also choose a starting point where they'd like to begin their journey at. Something about cutting stars in half feels weird. :s Do you think it'd be too unbalanced to just give 1 star for everything and then maybe limit battles to only 3 pokemon fighting all at once? Edited by Jance, Nov 17 2015, 02:06 PM.
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| Fordy | Nov 17 2015, 01:58 PM Post #11 | |
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ain't no new thing
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i kind of agree, but i think just allow half stars, allow full team battles if that's what you're in to (who really does that anyway), and just kind of logically determine if something deserves the "participation" reward or if it was just there to try and game the system | |
541 ![]() oh! sweet nuthin'APL: 5 | ||
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| FuzzyMittenz | Nov 17 2015, 03:14 PM Post #12 | |
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Pidgey
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I think that the character application process would be relatively informal in the beginning. Absolutely brand new players would probably be scrutinized a little more closely, but at this point, it'd just be a formality to ensure that we weren't going to be inundated....well...I don't really know. I would hate to say "people who can't write", but there's a certain type of person that just grates on me, and that type generally includes people who can't form a complete sentence. Edited by FuzzyMittenz, Nov 17 2015, 03:16 PM.
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| Maverick | Nov 17 2015, 05:48 PM Post #13 | |
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"How many assholes we got on this ship anyhow?"
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It sort of sounds like the majority is saying no to blanketed leveling and mark individual pokemon levels using the star method. Do we wanna do a poll for this for some hard yay/nay numbers? As for the application thing, yeah this sort of condenses the old home and lab posts into a few words. Might be more useful if we lean toward allowing 'advanced characters' since what they would start with would have to be approved while the newbie stuff would all be standard. |
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| FuzzyMittenz | Nov 20 2015, 07:03 AM Post #14 | |
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Pidgey
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I think we're ready for a poll to specifically address "How would you like to handle leveling?" with an explanation of the two systems in the first post. | |
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| Dustfinger | Nov 20 2015, 10:11 AM Post #15 | |
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Pidgey
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I kind of want to add my thoughts, and hopefully not undo any progress being made. Would it be too complex to have a separation between Pokemon and player/trainer level? I know it can be done, but would it be a deterrent for people that want to get back into Rping, having more stats to keep up with? If the answer is yes, then I guess forget my idea, because it would have more items to keep track of. Firstly, with the trainer level should come rewards. Pokemon level up and receive new moves and/or evolutions. If a trainer levels up, how about at certain levels they have a list of "Perks" or "Feats" they can choose from? And then some Perks or Feats can lead to more advanced versions of that skill. For instance, if you are more focused on training your Pokemon and leveling them, choose one that increases the amount of experience they can earn and by increasing that skill the next time your trainer levels up and can have a new perk, you can get even more experience, or if you want to heal your Pokemon while you are out and about, there could be a Perk for that, or maybe a Perk for increasing your chances to capture a Pokemon. The possibilities could go on and on with this and increases the incentive to even have a Character Level. Additionally, it adds to customizing your character to fit whatever niche you would like to fill. This method could even lead to professions or roles such as Pokemon Trainer, Breeder, Collector, etc. On the topic of actually progressing or leveling, for Pokemon Rping, I have previously used the 'level = XP required/earned to reach next level' method and it seems to work fine. I used and modified it for my own Pokemon table top campaign. I made it so that once the Pokemon reaches certain thresholds such as the lvl. 25 mark or lvl. 50, the experience needed is at that point doubled and then tripled from the original amount at those respective levels. I like this method, because it increases the pace of leveling from 1-25 which allows the Pokemon to gain some of its core moves, and then makes it more of a challenge to get to higher levels as, I feel, it should be. This is my approach, as with all things I say, it is just to consider. As far as the other ideas, I am completely against 1 level to rule them all. While it may be simple, it gets rid of how Pokemon training should be. The star system approach keeps everything fairly simple, and I would lean more towards it if this forum is trying to keep some kind of representation of progress without wanting to make Rping feel like "grinding." The only modification I would strongly suggest is a modification to the amount of stars needed for later levels, because it is supposed to be harder to progress at higher levels. **EDIT**: I wanted to quickly add that the perks system could also potentially help with other topics that are under dispute right now like Legendary Pokemon. Just something else to consider. Edited by Dustfinger, Nov 20 2015, 10:17 AM.
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| Jance | Nov 20 2015, 10:51 AM Post #16 | |
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Mega Venusaur
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Prior to the 'Character Levels' we originally had individual Pokemon leveling at a rate of 1.5 EXP needed to level up. You earned EXP in a couple ways, one by battling and the other by earning LP for every post which could then be spent on EXP that went to whichever pokemon you wanted. Part of the LP system also allowed for you to purchase MPL which automatically elevated all your pokemon by 1 level for every 1 MPL up until level 50. Once you had 50 MPL all your pokemon would be at level 50 from the get go but you still had to level them individually from there on out. Character Levels was really just supposed to roll this all into one where your Pokemon all just leveled together and you could use whoever you wanted without worrying about what level they were at or anything or having to keep track of experience per pokemon and so on. But it seems a lot of folks do enjoy keeping track of the individual systems and as we've pretty much decided to do a full restart everybody will be starting at the same level with just one Pokemon so keeping track of a bunch won't be a problem until later. So we'd likely just remove Character Levels and go back to just tracking individual pokemon levels and following the star system as our means for leveling. Mav and I had talked some about having Character Specializations for folks that could give the player special bonuses and perks. We could probably still do something like this if folks wanted. Requiring more experience for higher levels has been brought up before and it's an interesting system and it's how the games themselves work, but one thing about an RP site, things happened much more slowly here, so it can take years to even reach level 50 with a flat rate system. In six years I managed to get one pokemon to level 59 and that was due strongly to the implementation of MPL. So part of what we'd like to do is make leveling not take quite so long. Though with the star system we could perhaps have it be a gradual increase, it only takes maybe 1 star to level to 10, 2 stars to level until maybe level 25 then 3 until level 50 and 4 to like 75 and 5 'till 100? |
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| Tsunami | Nov 20 2015, 11:16 AM Post #17 | |
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Pidgey
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I was thinking about this when there discussions about direct damage to trainers. If that were the case, Trainers would need a way to defend themselves. At least HP of some kind and the option to spec in combat. Something like this would be necessary. As for leveling, I agree that "One-level for everything" should go. I'm not sure of its benefits without huge supplements to make up for the lack of variety. The anime (for a while anyway) had no levels and focused more on type advantage and trainer skill/bond for how well the Pokmon did in battle. I would be willing to consider a system more like that if you're going for a slightly less stat-heavy experience. For example a trainer skill level for battling, and something to represent the bond and using those values to help determine damage potential. But, there would need to be a comprehensive feat system to make up for the same-ness of what combat would quickly become. A feat system would definitely be great for determining specialisations, but I would advise against making actual specialisations. Because we would be playing people, wouldn't we, and our characters could begin on the road to the Pokmon League, but end joining a para-military group or becoming a business owner or something. |
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| Dustfinger | Nov 20 2015, 12:42 PM Post #18 | |
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Pidgey
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With the Perk system, there's not really a limit on the direction that could go, so your character could still potentially be that military soldier or business person, but if you're on a Pokemon RP site, I'm not certain why you would want to go that route, but it's your character. Now with the business character, there could be a feat that someone could opt into that everywhere and time they earn z or $ or whatever, they earn a little extra. Or for the soldier (in a Pokemon world I would imagine them fighting wars with Pokemon), a feat that makes your Pokemon's attacks more potent or the Pokemon more defensible or speedy, or you could be the medic that can heal Pokemon on the field like I mentioned before. The feats allows for all kinds of variants, and since we probably wouldn't be able to cover everyone's ideal situation, there could be a suggestion thread for that as well or Advisers could be contacted for new characters and see what could be come up with. So for the leveling speediness, I can understand it taking time as this is Rping. Stars sound easy enough, but I don't think it's been properly discussed how people would actually earn them. After battle alone? Or possibly after major questing has been done? Do stars get split between active party members? Bonus stars for good Rping and staying in character? Just some quick thoughts that come to mind as I've never used such a system. Maybe stars for Pokemon and XP for the Trainer? |
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| Jance | Nov 20 2015, 01:22 PM Post #19 | |
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Mega Venusaur
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Yea the star system's a bit confusing on how to handle outside of battle. Battling can't be the only means of leveling as that'll slow things down even more drastically. Do we give a star per post? Half a star? Before LP we used GEXP = General Experience, which you earned for every post you made and could then be applied in town to whatever pokemon you wanted. | |
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| Fordy | Nov 22 2015, 07:47 PM Post #20 | |
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ain't no new thing
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i was thinking 1 - 3 stars per post, exactly the same as lp or genexp | |
541 ![]() oh! sweet nuthin'APL: 5 | ||
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| Jance | Nov 23 2015, 10:41 AM Post #21 | |
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Mega Venusaur
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M'kay so for every post you'd get 1-3 stars still based on the idea of rating a post. Thus with the proposed travel experience system you'd also receive trainer experience for the post? If we establish a 'trainer experience' system for traveling would we perhaps want to have it work in tangent with more than just travel, maybe with a character leveling system that's separate from pokemon leveling which applies and affects only your character? |
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| Fordy | Nov 23 2015, 01:30 PM Post #22 | |
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ain't no new thing
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i posted something about that in whatever other thread i was talking about this in. in my original idea, that was just the name. maybe there's something to be done there though | |
541 ![]() oh! sweet nuthin'APL: 5 | ||
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