How Would You Mark This?

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How Would You Mark This?; Marking
Topic Started: Nov 6 2007, 01:13 PM (1,244 Views)
faro	Nov 6 2007, 01:13 PM Post #1
Unregistered	We have had numerous discussions regarding this and would like to know how this should be marked. The movement is in canter: PXS change rein SC counter canter C flying change of leg The rider changes rein but before the corner does a flying change then carries on in canter right past C until the next movement. Do we: Mark down the counter canter (because the horse broke - regardless of whether it was with a flying change or not) and give a zero for the change or Mark down both movements with a comment like "unbalanced" for the counter canter and "early" for the change? Tina Carson Harare, Zimbabwe
Unregistered


Donna Johnston	Nov 6 2007, 02:55 PM Post #2
Member Posts: 21 Group: Listed Judges Member #422 Joined: September 28, 2007	Are all three movements within the same mark??



Dr Tamsyn Cowie	Nov 6 2007, 03:17 PM Post #3
Newbie Posts: 9 Group: Listed Judges Member #5 Joined: February 13, 2007	This entirely depends in which number movement each bit comes. If 3 separate movements it's easy a) change rein in canter - whatever appropriate to the quality of that movement counter canter - 0 as no countercanter shown ( or very low mark for cantering on the wrong leg - this is debatable) c) Flying change early and not on the aids - max 4 for insufficient and could be worse if the change was not correct If only one or two movements will have to amalgamate and curse the writer of the test! This would be a hugely expensive mistake and I would take some time to explain it to the rider. I would be hesitant to clobber the submission mark overmuch as this really only one mistake although its effects pan across 2 movements and has already caused devastation. If it was one mistake amongst many others - that's different Interestingly if you did it with 3 for a break and cantering on the wrong leg followed by 0 for no flying change at C - you end up with the same result! You cannot call the counter canter 'unbalanced'- it didn't exist at all.



Donna Johnston	Nov 12 2007, 11:00 AM Post #4
Member Posts: 21 Group: Listed Judges Member #422 Joined: September 28, 2007	So I've heard from Faro and the marks for the movements are split: One mark for the change rein and counter canter One mark for the flying change at C. Based on that my opinion would be a 4 or less as no counter counter in the first movement and a 0 for the flying change as that is the only thing to mark in the second movement and there wasn't one!! What does anyone else think?



Dr Tamsyn Cowie	Nov 12 2007, 04:37 PM Post #5
Newbie Posts: 9 Group: Listed Judges Member #5 Joined: February 13, 2007	Agree on the first bit - except my understanding was that there was a bit of counter canter until the corner so could put that on the plus side, but you could find a tiny bit of a mark for the change as there was one very early and not on the aids and if gave 0 would be hitting the same mistake twice - it's debatable. This is a very expensive error indeed - I know as there is very much this scenario in the PSG test following the half-pirouettes and it's a great mark-losing opportunity.



Donna Johnston	Nov 13 2007, 08:33 PM Post #6
Member Posts: 21 Group: Listed Judges Member #422 Joined: September 28, 2007	Yes there are a few ways to look at it! I'm going for the zero if the second mark is for a flying change only ...... which should be at C. If the flying change happens in the previous movement and there is therefore no counter canter in the previous movement or before the next movement ... zero!



Andrew Bennie	Feb 2 2008, 09:34 PM Post #7
Member Posts: 12 Group: Listed Judges Member #813 Joined: February 2, 2008	Gosh there seems to be some chat on this one and without more detailed description, these comments could easily be taken the wrong way!! It appears to me that several of the comments are suggesting a zero mark, surely 0 is "Not performed"??? if the horse has cantered across PXS and on to the corner there has been part of the movement (including a portion of the counter canter) performed??? Was the flying change performed correctly and did the rider asked for it ??? If yes, then surely it has been performed but in the wrong place, so would not this be a course error, not a "not performed"?? I'm sure there will be more discussion, but without seeing what actually happened, how can we really give a correct mark??



Jane Lavington	Feb 6 2008, 09:22 PM Post #8
Newbie Posts: 5 Group: Listed Judges Member #378 Joined: June 18, 2007	No one has suggested giving the canter a 0. It was only a suggestion for the second mark which, as far as we are aware, is for the flying change at C only. The horse changed in the counter canter before the corner which was in the previous mark and no attempt was made to correct it so the change could be shown in the right place. As a rider I would have made a quick correction to get back into the counter canter before C so I could at least try get a good mark for the change. Have had to do that in the PSG once or twice after the piros!!



Andrew Bennie	Feb 7 2008, 01:11 PM Post #9
Member Posts: 12 Group: Listed Judges Member #813 Joined: February 2, 2008	Good to see more chat and as stated last time I feel there really needs to be a more detailed description to be able to give definite marks, we are interpreting this in different ways and so we may all be right in our analysis of how to mark it?? The way that I understand it is that the rider has cantered accross PXS and on towards the corner (how near to the corner we don't know) so a little bit of the counter canter has been shown. The description from Faro says "the rider changes rein but before the corner does a flying change", my interpretation of that, is that the rider asked for the change , if this is the case I would have given a course error, to give the rider the chance to perform it in the correct place, keeping in mind that IF the test had the same movement again on the other rein then the rider should be made aware of the error so that he/she would not make the same mistake again later in the test!! It also depends on where the change was done, for all we know it could have been done before the corner at S turning onto the side of the arena?? To me the main point here is to know whether the rider asked for the horse to do a change, or if the horse did a change of it's own accord or out of loss of balance, submission or whatever, all of which create a totally different scenario and thus marks?? Perhaps if Faro reads these, they would be kind enough to give us a little more info on this and tell us if the movement does repeat itself on the other rein? Thanks and look forward to more chat, it's all good for brain stimulation!! :rolleyes:



Gemma Austin	Feb 8 2008, 05:11 PM Post #10
Member Posts: 18 Group: Moderators Member #426 Joined: September 29, 2007	Question Andrew - if you are taking the approach that the rider asked for the change and giving an error of course, would you leave some time before belling to see if in fact the horse changed without being asked and the rider was going to correct it, or would you just bell immediately?



Andrew Bennie	Feb 8 2008, 06:47 PM Post #11
Member Posts: 12 Group: Listed Judges Member #813 Joined: February 2, 2008	This all depends again on what was seen, not much of this we know from the description. However, supposing the rider asked for the change and got it at H, there is a very short space before C to get the bell/ horn rung, so unless the rider realises their mistake and does some tempi changes???? before they get to C, the chance for the judge to let them know is very brief and yes I would wait for that short period to see if the rider did try to correct it, at least until they had gone past C. The fact that we don't know about the test and whether there is the same movement on the other rein also has influence, as if there is a repeat of the movement on the other rein, that would to me mean that we have the obligation to let the rider know. My feeling with all of this is to try to give the rider the benefit of trying to earn as many marks as possible, so if a 0 was given for a good change that was performed in the wrong place, I feel that would be far harsher than giving an error and then allowing the rider the opportunity to earn perhaps a 7 or 8 (or more??) by performing the change in the right place! Perhaps this my generous outlook and seeing it from a riders perspective as well and at the end of the day this is all rather guesswork as already said we don't really have a detailed description of what really did happen!! Good for a bit of stimulation and to see how others interpret things healthy discussion is great! Lets see some more!



Gemma Austin	Feb 10 2008, 07:20 PM Post #12
Member Posts: 18 Group: Moderators Member #426 Joined: September 29, 2007	I agree with that attitude totally Andrew - judging is not about trying to catch people out


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