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at least half of Americans = TRASH
Topic Started: Apr 12 2007, 08:07:01 PM (1,906 Views)
Stone Kirby
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¢¾¢Ü!?

Dart, if you stopped making stupid insults to neocons/liberals/etc. (as much as they might deserve it >_>) in every post and stopped pretending to be gay/ female/whatever, everyone would appreciate it.
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roarshock
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metalgod.
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Magus
Apr 14 2007, 01:41:41
Dart, if you stopped making stupid insults to neocons/liberals/etc. in every post and stopped pretending to be gay/ female/whatever, everyone would appreciate it.

hey hey a voice of reason. ^_^
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Stone Kirby
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¢¾¢Ü!?

Darts
Apr 13 2007, 21:44:47
Usually people justify the existence of welfare on moral grounds, talking about how it's immoral to let poor people starve.

I think it's important to note that you do not think that poor people will starve without welfare. >_>

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I fail to see how supporting welfare makes you a liberal

Conservatives - Say they're going to cut welfare, but increase it instead. Or at least, they used to. Now some of them openly support it.
Liberals - Say they're going to increase welfare and do it.

...So yeah, you present a compelling point, F3n.
>_>
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Hammer Kirby
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Go outside
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Magus
Apr 14 2007, 05:41:41
Dart, if you stopped making stupid insults to neocons/liberals/etc. (as much as they might deserve it >_>) in every post and stopped pretending to be gay/ female/whatever, everyone would appreciate it.

XD
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F3nr1L
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Darts
Apr 14 2007, 06:47:44
Magus
Apr 14 2007, 05:41:41
Dart, if you stopped making stupid insults to neocons/liberals/etc. (as much as they might deserve it >_>) in every post and stopped pretending to be gay/ female/whatever, everyone would appreciate it.

XD

No, Dart, we are serious. Your constant closeminded ravings are more annoying than my senseless arguing. You know why that is? Not only are they closeminded ravings, but then you senseless argue them as well, making you exactly twice as worse as me!
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Hammer Kirby
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Go outside
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F3nr1L
Apr 14 2007, 15:24:16
Darts
Apr 14 2007, 06:47:44
Magus
Apr 14 2007, 05:41:41
Dart, if you stopped making stupid insults to neocons/liberals/etc. (as much as they might deserve it >_>) in every post and stopped pretending to be gay/ female/whatever, everyone would appreciate it.

XD

No, Dart, we are serious. Your constant closeminded ravings are more annoying than my senseless arguing. You know why that is? Not only are they closeminded ravings, but then you senseless argue them as well, making you exactly twice as worse as me!

I think that's for others to decide, not you...
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F3nr1L
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Darts
Apr 14 2007, 08:25:06
F3nr1L
Apr 14 2007, 15:24:16
Darts
Apr 14 2007, 06:47:44
Magus
Apr 14 2007, 05:41:41
Dart, if you stopped making stupid insults to neocons/liberals/etc. (as much as they might deserve it >_>) in every post and stopped pretending to be gay/ female/whatever, everyone would appreciate it.

XD

No, Dart, we are serious. Your constant closeminded ravings are more annoying than my senseless arguing. You know why that is? Not only are they closeminded ravings, but then you senseless argue them as well, making you exactly twice as worse as me!

I think that's for others to decide, not you...

I speak for the people.
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Hammer Kirby
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I'm no more closeminded than any other libertarian or any other music snob.
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Hammer Kirby
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If you want some real closeminded rants, you should meet my older brother. He's even more of a strict laissez-faire capitalist and classic rock purist than I am.
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Abyssal_Shrimp
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GREGOR SMASH!

Darts
Apr 14 2007, 11:27:51
I'm no more closeminded than any other libertarian or any other music snob.

Doesn't mean you aren't. Though I'm tempted to say I find Magus and Jeff to be more openminded than you, or maybe they're just less vocal about it. >_>
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Hammer Kirby
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Abyssal_Shrimp
Apr 14 2007, 21:01:38
Darts
Apr 14 2007, 11:27:51
I'm no more closeminded than any other libertarian or any other music snob.

Doesn't mean you aren't. Though I'm tempted to say I find Magus and Jeff to be more openminded than you, or maybe they're just less vocal about it. >_>

They're probably just less arrogant and don't try to be as outrageous as I do, because I know that their political views are more or less the same as mine most of the time.

I'm mostly just arrogant/outrageous here because I don't get to be either of those things in real life. I'm a pretty boring, mild-mannered guy if you ever meet me in person.
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Stone Kirby
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¢¾¢Ü!?

Abyssal_Shrimp
Apr 14 2007, 16:01:38
Darts
Apr 14 2007, 11:27:51
I'm no more closeminded than any other libertarian or any other music snob.

Doesn't mean you aren't. Though I'm tempted to say I find Magus and Jeff to be more openminded than you, or maybe they're just less vocal about it. >_>

I'm no music snob, and I'm not sure exactly what is meant by closeminded here; as far as I can tell, the main difference between me and Dart's positions in political discussions is that I'm less hostile and...well, my jokes are funnier, as they don't involves something stupid about gays, liberals, or neocons every time. >_>
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Jeff
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Magus
Apr 14 2007, 17:19:36
Abyssal_Shrimp
Apr 14 2007, 16:01:38
Darts
Apr 14 2007, 11:27:51
I'm no more closeminded than any other libertarian or any other music snob.

Doesn't mean you aren't. Though I'm tempted to say I find Magus and Jeff to be more openminded than you, or maybe they're just less vocal about it. >_>

I'm no music snob, and I'm not sure exactly what is meant by closeminded here; as far as I can tell, the main difference between me and Dart's positions in political discussions is that I'm less hostile and...well, my jokes are funnier, as they don't involves something stupid about gays, liberals, or neocons every time. >_>

*Nukes Houston*
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Flarebringer
Comrade
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Tired. Stupid Science Olympiad. Not thinking straight. Will respond to salient points quickly.

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Flarebringer, let me just start by saying that you're one pretentious guy. You sound like an ivory tower liberal college professor.


Liberal? Well, alright, I am what I am. College professor? Thanks...I guess. Last time I checked college professors were as literate as everyone else. Ivory tower? And when it comes to ivory-tower, well, if ivory-tower means a disconnect from reality, I advance that it's your points that suffer from that.

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Coercion is only morally right when it's done to stop a worse violation of rights and when it truly is done to protect the people's rights, which is why I accept the premise that there need to be taxpayer-funded police and military organizations.

A) Explain public education?
B) Explain how hunger, lack of income, that sort of thing isn't coercion on your utility?
C) What's military spending up to in our buget nowadays? 25%? 30%? If you accept that, you accept that taxes are good for truly nessecary things. Now imagine a world without an moderatly educated workforce, roads, airports, national parks, the Food and Drug Administration (e.g still eating out of The Jungle), banks that don't fail about 193618723 times a year, and every invention that has ever come out of government-subsidized research. You're telling me that taxing for tanks is cool, but taxing for all that isn't?

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That's because people are immoral and don't have as much respect for others' rights as they should, as I established earlier in this topic.


Turn. And after saying that, you propose a model of government where stupidity and immorality and disdain for rights is set loose with utter freedom? And you haven't "established" it, you've said it with no backup and ignored everything I said in response.

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It's not coercive unless they use violence against you or threaten to do so.


Princeton WordNet: coerce
to cause to do through pressure or necessity, by physical, moral or intellectual means :"She forced him to take a job in the city"; "He squeezed her for information"

Research plorx?

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It's not a la-la land. It's what the Founders were working toward before quasi-socialists like Lincoln, Wilson, and FDR screwed it up, essentially.

A) Oh, yay, we have Founders on our side. Just 'cuz they did it doesn't mean that it's cool. Slaveholding? Women's rights, anyone?
B) "Stable ownership is the gift of social law, and is given late in the progress of society." - Jefferson. Yes, that Jefferson.
C) "All the Property that is necessary to a man is his natural Right, which none may justly deprive him of, but all Property superfluous to such Purposes is the property of the Public who, by their Laws have created it and who may, by other Laws dispose of it." - Franklin.
D) You STILL haven't adressed the fact that under every democracy of free human beings, with people given a choice of governments, NOBODY has EVER voted Liberterianism into play in the past 50 years. The closest we came was Reagan, and he still wasn't much of a Liberterian. The only countries which have truly lost control of their economies tend to be post-regional-apocalypic governments like Pinochet's Chile and post-Communist Russia. And those tanked. Rapidly.
E) Those founders kinda lived in a time when America was heavily aricultiralized, information technology didn't exist, transportation was slow, and discrimination rampant. Do we go back to horses and buggies 'cuz the Founders used them?

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You seem to not be grasping the subtle distinction between corporations and government. Corporations give you a choice of whether or not to buy their products; they don't resort to coercion. Government, on the other hand, takes away your freedom if you don't pay for whatever the hell it wants you to pay for. I wouldn't say that government emulates privates corporations at all; as Murray Rothbard once said, government is more like a criminal gang.

A) Wasn't Murray Rothbard that same anarcho-capitalist nut who wanted no government? If you really wanna take his perspective, be my guest.
B) You're right. Government's not like the free market at all. Government:
- Never suffers an economic crash.
- Has honesty regulated to some extent in law (FDA and stuffs)
- Has legislated ahead of private buisness to remove discrimination in the workplace.
- Does not create monopolies.
- Does not have incentive to charge more than it has to on services.
- Does not have incentive to agressivly industrialize and fuck up the enviroment.
C) If you don't like it, you can move out to your libertarian la-la-la...oh, right, no free people in the world have ever decided to create one.

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Well, it's not the government's job to protect us from our own stupidity.

The entire premise of libertarianism is that people and the markets can take care of themselves better than the government.

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I'm mostly just arrogant/outrageous here because I don't get to be either of those things in real life. I'm a pretty boring, mild-mannered guy if you ever meet me in person.

Same. I'm taking out my frustration on debate being cancelled for my school on you guys. >.>;;;

I do love how I can be considered right-wing for the internets, though, despite being a liberal in real life.

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I think we all agreed (aside from the absent Flarebringer) that government doesn't get to decide what's moral... only what is legal/illegal. The two are not always the same thing.


'course, we're still allowed to debate on them, and what I've done is set out one possible moral philosophy to judge on. Just like I'm attacking libertarianism, you're welcome to come after Rawls.

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Usually people justify the existence of welfare on moral grounds, talking about how it's immoral to let poor people starve. I always find it ironic when liberals claim that morals are non-existent when all of their arguments rely on some sort of moral reasoning. Relying on morals isn't a bad thing - it's just hypocritical to criticize others for doing something when you do it too.


If you're going to say that, you might wanna adress the veil of ignorance, Darts. Just saying.
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F3nr1L
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Now, I won't be getting into this extensively(though I could, as could Jeff and Magus), but Public School is possibly one of the worst places that our funding goes to. Public schools, while in concept are great, are all basically shit. We need to quit having governmentally funded public schools, and replace that with a per-child voucher system. This will allow the school that are actually good to get money and stay alive, while schools that are awful will not get any funding. This will create natural competition between schools, which, will benefit all by making every school be the best, most effective school it can be.

And please don't get me started on what we need to do to teacher's unions. Simply put, it is abolish them.
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