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at least half of Americans = TRASH
Topic Started: Apr 12 2007, 08:07:01 PM (1,910 Views)
Flarebringer
Comrade
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Magus
Apr 13 2007, 01:58:18
Quote:
 
complaining about the "moral decline" of this country


Erm. They have a valid complaint here, I think. >_>

*hi-five*
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Hammer Kirby
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Damn neocons, trying to start perpetual war and perpetual regulation of our private lives and dumbing down our country so that people will naively allow them to do so. They're the people who are really behaving immorally. And all the welfare bums, of course. Damn bums accepting money that was stolen from taxpayers.
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Flarebringer
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XDXDXD

In other news: *points to Social Contract*
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Abyssal_Shrimp
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GREGOR SMASH!

Darts
Apr 12 2007, 22:05:52
Any good Christian preacher thinks that women should not have jobs other than raising children, don't you know?

hahaha, no.
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Stone Kirby
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¢¾¢Ü!?

Flarebringer
Apr 12 2007, 21:47:20
XDXDXD

In other news: *points to Social Contract*

Holy off-topicness Batman, I can already tell where this could lead. And knowing me and Dart, there's a distinct possibility of that happening. >_>
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Flarebringer
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Oh, and welfare only for bums? When my parents came to the States, they were on welfare for about a year. And demographically, both of them have degrees higher than almost everyone on this board are ever gonna get.

Unless, I dunno, all of you are after PhDs.
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Hammer Kirby
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Flarebringer
Apr 13 2007, 02:47:20
XDXDXD

In other news: *points to Social Contract*

People forget that contracts work two ways. In exchange for us paying taxes, government is supposed to guarantee our constitutional rights. Neoconservatives and bureaucrats seem intent on making a mockery of the Constitution, violating their part of the contract while expecting us to follow our part.
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Flarebringer
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I ain't arguing with you on that. But on the Welfare topic...I'll post an outline now, and a real argument when I'm done with linear A.
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Stone Kirby
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¢¾¢Ü!?

Oh yay, welfare and other government programs discussion. I knew it. >_>
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Hammer Kirby
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Flarebringer
Apr 13 2007, 02:51:24
Oh, and welfare only for bums? When my parents came to the States, they were on welfare for about a year. And demographically, both of them have degrees higher than almost everyone on this board are ever gonna get.

Unless, I dunno, all of you are after PhDs.

No offense, but they behaved immorally. They could have at least gotten a cheap job. It's easy to do. I know - I applied for a minimum wage job last week and I've already started working there only a week after applying.
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Flarebringer
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A) With nobody hiring Asians anywhere in the 60s' and the scholarship that let them afford classes in the first place stipulating that they gave full attention to classes?

B) As a more detailed defense of welfare: This argument will rest upon the concept of the Veil of Ignorance, or the Original Position. As reference, core ideals can be found in the works of John Rawls, especially A Theory of Justice.

Let us consider what makes a fair, just society. The common argument against welfare is that some people, the talented or physically strong or charismatic will have an advantage anyways, and it's fair to let them keep that advantage. I will counter that argument by moving into abstraction, with a hypothetical example.

Let us say that you are a soul about to be born, or whatever prenatal awareness scenario you'd like to dream up. It is your task to fashion a society that is most fair to you, most advantageous to you. The catch is, of course, if you knew you would be born smart, you'd choose capitalism or anarchy or something like that. This is called minimaxing, because similar to min/maxing in DnD (sorry, had to do that), you maximize the advantages for one group, the strong, at the expense of the weak. Kinda like how you take 18 Int and throw dump stats into strength and wisdom and charisma if you're gonna be a wizard. But, with the scenario of the original position, the hypothetical scenario that I've described, we can see that's not just.

Because you don't know and have no control over what body you'll be born into: not-discriminated-against or discriminated against, weak, strong, smart, dumb, or so on, your best bet will not be to minimax. I mean, sure, you have a chance of doing great, but more often, you'll just be treated like dirt. So unless you're a serious gambler, and I don't think you are because nobody rational chooses to 'gamble' with their entire life, you don't minimax. You choose the government that offers maximum benefit to both the strong and the weak. That's our welfare government today: you provide the strong with a way to suceed through capitalism, and you provide the weaker people with welfare as a safety net.

It's kinda like if you have no clue what class you're gonna be, you're not going to pit 18 into Int. I mean, should the dice come up poorly...well, Mr. 18 Int with Str-Dump Fighter is not going to do so well, barring some serious multiclassing twinks.

And I'm sorry, but you can't twink your life.
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Zigludo
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うおっ、眩しい!

Darts
Apr 13 2007, 02:58:39
Flarebringer
Apr 13 2007, 02:51:24
Oh, and welfare only for bums? When my parents came to the States, they were on welfare for about a year. And demographically, both of them have degrees higher than almost everyone on this board are ever gonna get.

Unless, I dunno, all of you are after PhDs.

No offense, but they behaved immorally. They could have at least gotten a cheap job. It's easy to do. I know - I applied for a minimum wage job last week and I've already started working there only a week after applying.

But would you be able to live off of it and feed a family while still working toward whatever your career goal is? I think welfare has its benefits, though it could probably use some trimming back.
I'm gringe and I don't give a chainsaw
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Hammer Kirby
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gringe
Apr 13 2007, 03:09:01
Darts
Apr 13 2007, 02:58:39
Flarebringer
Apr 13 2007, 02:51:24
Oh, and welfare only for bums? When my parents came to the States, they were on welfare for about a year. And demographically, both of them have degrees higher than almost everyone on this board are ever gonna get.

Unless, I dunno, all of you are after PhDs.

No offense, but they behaved immorally. They could have at least gotten a cheap job. It's easy to do. I know - I applied for a minimum wage job last week and I've already started working there only a week after applying.

But would you be able to live off of it and feed a family while still working toward whatever your career goal is? I think welfare has its benefits, though it could probably use some trimming back.

If welfare is more rewarding than a minimum wage job, that's completely ridiculous and counterproductive.
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Abyssal_Shrimp
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GREGOR SMASH!

Darts
Apr 12 2007, 23:11:02
gringe
Apr 13 2007, 03:09:01
Darts
Apr 13 2007, 02:58:39
Flarebringer
Apr 13 2007, 02:51:24
Oh, and welfare only for bums? When my parents came to the States, they were on welfare for about a year. And demographically, both of them have degrees higher than almost everyone on this board are ever gonna get.

Unless, I dunno, all of you are after PhDs.

No offense, but they behaved immorally. They could have at least gotten a cheap job. It's easy to do. I know - I applied for a minimum wage job last week and I've already started working there only a week after applying.

But would you be able to live off of it and feed a family while still working toward whatever your career goal is? I think welfare has its benefits, though it could probably use some trimming back.

If welfare is more rewarding than a minimum wage job, that's completely ridiculous and counterproductive.

Methinks you should work on countering the bulkier argument if you're going to defend your point.
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Zigludo
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うおっ、眩しい!

Darts
Apr 13 2007, 03:11:02
gringe
Apr 13 2007, 03:09:01
Darts
Apr 13 2007, 02:58:39
Flarebringer
Apr 13 2007, 02:51:24
Oh, and welfare only for bums? When my parents came to the States, they were on welfare for about a year. And demographically, both of them have degrees higher than almost everyone on this board are ever gonna get.

Unless, I dunno, all of you are after PhDs.

No offense, but they behaved immorally. They could have at least gotten a cheap job. It's easy to do. I know - I applied for a minimum wage job last week and I've already started working there only a week after applying.

But would you be able to live off of it and feed a family while still working toward whatever your career goal is? I think welfare has its benefits, though it could probably use some trimming back.

If welfare is more rewarding than a minimum wage job, that's completely ridiculous and counterproductive.

Well, maybe a person could work part-time, go to school and study the rest of the time, and get welfare that is less than they make? It still helps.

I don't really know much about how welfare works though, so maybe I can't say too much. :P
I'm gringe and I don't give a chainsaw
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