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Should we have carbon poles; To get a bit of interest in the forum
Topic Started: Oct 13 2006, 10:13 AM (2,225 Views)
SteveC
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Jim Walsh
Mar 6 2007, 12:03 PM
I am in NZ next week and will bring some section back to have one at Batemans bay - if everybody is happy for me to sail with it

I don't mind either, but you will have to accept the 4 finger salute.

Oh, and Justin says he will be there just to get the beer :lol:
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Jim Walsh
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I have enough trouble keeping my crew on the boat and not in the tide - it had to be the oldest and heaviest to fall off

I am really looking forward to the octstar course
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The Ghost
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Jim

To use the carbon pole at Batemans bay I would suggest that you just make an approach (email) to the committee to trial the pole during the regatta for evaluation purposes. The committee can then provide official approval to do so and your results can also count as well as evaluating the pole. You can then provide the results of the evaluation to the committee and this will then be included as part of the materials that will be sent out when an official vote is requested of the association membership during say May.
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Jim Walsh
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Just got the pole, 2.2 Kgs with Forespar ends compared to 3.75 kgs
Tube $395 compared to $324
Ends $90 each
Labour $54
Freight $90

The tube is 50 ID and 2.4 Wall so you could probably make it a bit lighter
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Jim Walsh
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The pole has a 2.4mm wall which is pretty strong, to go to a 2.1mm wall will bring the price down by $50 and weight by 200gm to 2kgs

I would suggest the minimum weight for poles set at 2kgs and any commercially available tube

It should be noted this isn't a major performance altering change, it is cost neutral and easier to sail especially for less strong forward hands
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Number 48
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My thoughts on the matter is as follows:

1. Although the E7 is supposedly one-design, not every E7 is identical, that is, we use different outboards which have different weights, different sheets, different sailmakers, different fittings and fixtures, and sail with different eskys and varying quantities of beerios etc.
2. Supporting this is the more significant difference in the layout/fittings/fixtures/systems etc between the non-GP boats and the GP boats.
3.Consequently, in theory it should not matter which manufacturer or what weight any given spinnaker pole is - there has to be a trade-off between lightness, longevity and suitability for the conditions of service, that is, the loads placed upon the pole by the sportsboat, or more simply - strength. If you choose a pole that is too light, you will pay for it when you are planing downhill in 25 knots of southerly and it explodes, showering the crew in carbon splinters.
4. A carbon pole should not be limited to one manufacturer because this introduces a monopoly (however small) and has the propensity to result in higher margins for the said manufacturer and therefore cost increases for the owners of all E7's. Whilst most of us can afford the difference between a monopolised market and an open market (depending on how reasonable the preferred supplier is), ideally these costs should (and can) be avoided in the interests of the Class.
5. Amongst the many other reasons, a good proportion of us have bought E7's for their cost effectiveness and it is important that this be maintained to help preserve the E7's excellent resale value and therefore our investment.
6. For this reason, is it even necessary to switch from aluminium? Don't get me wrong, carbon is sensational (Amy and I also have a Cherub dripping with the stuff), and no - I didn't vote for aluminium, but it would have no effect on us either way.

Thoughts?

Andrew & Amy (No. 48 - Taking Back Sunday)
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SteveC
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Nice post Andrew.

$395 carbon compared to $324 is that what you were saying Jimmy.

There is a lot for moving with the times, slow and incremental ones are not what kills the classes. The E7 needs to keep up or it will eventually lose out. It has the advantage of the traditional sym kite which gives it it's little niche.

Jimmy is putting his money in to trial something which could have advantages, that are not necessarily going to be performance increasing. Performance and costs are two reasons as to why we will not see a carbon mast for a while longer.

I do think, as with the masts, we do need a control, at least for a period (if we go down the carbon path). There aren't that many suppliers, so having 3 suppliers building to (standard tube anyway, isn't it) specs should keep the monopoly game settled.
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SteveC
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my advice is. for what it is worth, do not mess with the class one design rules. I have been sailing in many classes for over 40 years, and have noted the demise of many classes as a result of small changes which later lead to larger changes. The Elliott 7 is a great competative boat lets look at increasing class membership and more input to the outer states ie. S.A. QLD. and W.A.rather than mess with the Elliott 7. Regards The Flying Doctor.

Hi Doc,

Thought it best to keep the Carbon pole dancing in one spot, hope that is ok with you.

I'm pretty sure that the association really has what is best in mind. I do agree with you that small changes can have effects in a big way. This issue has little to do with costs or performance, the effect therefore should also be minimal.

It is not a class that requires mega dollars, just sailing abilities. The boats (remembering Andrew's point on the variances) are remarkably similar in performance from the early 90's to the latest 2000's build. The main differences being the actual sailing of the E.

If the class does go down the path, it will be slowly and well controlled. Again the main benefits of the carbon pole is the lighter weight reducing the grunt need and helping in light weather with keeping the weight off the boom/main.

A number of crews store their pole off the boom in the light anyway, however for an undermanned boat this is a little more difficult, and is one way where the weight saving can benefit.

Remember that the association is always listening and willing, if you have ideas that can benefit the outer states, try them out.
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Number 48
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For Amy and I, who step our mast every time we sail the Elliott, carbon is certainly the go. Personally I think that lifting/raising the mast is pretty easy (and I'm a short, light bloke), but coming from Cherubs where I originally had a fast aluminium rig, then changed to a new carbon rig which was even quicker, I would put my money where my mouth is and change to carbon. Same with the pole.

Let's face it - we are one of few "modern sports boat" classes with a symmetrical spinnaker (and I bought into this class for this, amongst other reasons), and in theory it shouldn't cause too many problems.

Pleasingly, we have been whopping all manner of keel boats racing at Drummoyne over Winter including Adams 10's. Anything that improves the E7 is a step forward providing that control is maintained and the ideals of the class are not lost in the pursuit of conformity with the current crop of sports boats.

Perhaps the carbon pole could be adopted in the relative short term (subject to the vote of the owner's association) with the adoption of carbon masts in the medium to long term. In between, it may be possible to upgrade to carbon booms?
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Barman
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So hows the voting going, I didn't vote due to not being a member yet, but I'm all for going to carbon over time. My boom is about to die anyway!!!
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SteveC
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The presidents pole is official!




Good Morning All E7 Sailors.

Firstly, I must apologise for the delay in providing the results in relation to the change to the constitution re spinnaker poles and booms.

The results are that we will

1. Immediately implement the use of poles, subject to a 2kg weight limit

2. Implement carbon booms but the committee believe it prudent that we wait until 2008/2009 season subject to further investigation.


Regards

Howard Faulks

Secretary E7 Association
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Barman
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Mmmmmmmm cool. And eventually the rigs?
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