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| Metagame Analysis | |
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| Topic Started: Feb 7 2011, 11:37 PM (2,079 Views) | |
| Siphai | Jul 11 2015, 10:56 PM Post #121 |
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The Guy
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For my tournament I'm probably gonna change up the stat system a little bit. Something like, Speed, Turning, Pushing, Armor, Weapon. Major differences would be that the ricochet from being hit would simply be a function of weapon power (the amount you get spun around being a factor of weapon power and # of wheels/how wide your base is). Control would simply be a factor of speed and # wheels/how wide your base is. Pushing would be who wins in a pushing match + how quickly you push an opponent. Might even remove the Turning stat at the end of it or rename it Control. Simplify, simplify. |
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Team Targeted - (36-12) Robot Bastards Dr. P: 4-8 Square Wave: 11-1 Snijmachine: 10-2 Parabolic Trajectory: 11-1 | |
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| That Kode Guy | Jul 11 2015, 11:06 PM Post #122 |
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Ruiner of All
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You know, that's something that I've been thinking about for a long time. Before, recoil has always seemed to hinge onto traction and # of wheels, but it's never really been fleshed out. Good to see some thought process on that. Like, Last Rites goes flying back after every huge hit he makes, most notably his ass-kicking of Mosquito, where he went into a gyroscope spree across the arena. The greater your weapon is, then the more recoil you should suffer. |
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| That Kode Guy | Dec 10 2015, 02:36 PM Post #123 |
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Ruiner of All
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I know strategy has been a very ambiguous category, but... what about aggression? From how I see it, most of it is being in control of the match, with some attacking mixed in, and that's how I've been putting it forth. If you control a match, you're being aggressive. The other guy can't do much to stop you. What are other people's takes on it? |
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| NWOWWE | Dec 10 2015, 02:41 PM Post #124 |
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Team Blood Gulch Motto
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I've always looked at it as how assertive you were during the fight. Basically if you spend most of the match on the defensive (or if your one of the slug-speed spinners, playing the part of an arena hazard), you're not really doing much to earn aggression points. I've always factored how much control you have during a fight more into Strategy, though controlling a bot can lead to Aggression depending on what you do with your opponent while controlling them. |
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| NFX | Dec 10 2015, 02:41 PM Post #125 |
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Fuck Bitches Get Crystals
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To my mind, Aggression has always been how often you are moving towards your opponent, or showing intent to attack. Thwacking on the spot could score a few Aggression points, but not as much as other methods. |
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Team Mongoose (358-215) "The Colour of Awesome" Braveheart / Crash Blossom / Depth Charge / Broken Ghost / Murder Death Unit / Agent X RoBattle Override - 13 pts MiDAS - 12 pts it was a gigantic masturbation of polygons :v - That Kode Guy | |
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| MadBull | Dec 10 2015, 02:41 PM Post #126 |
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Superheavyweight
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[20:38:33] Martijn: well [20:39:26] Martijn: control and aggression are clearly 2 different things in Robot wars, they are 2 seperate categories there [20:39:33] Martijn: it's hard to put your finger on it [20:39:45] Martijn: in a game I play control and aggression are even more or less opposites [20:39:59] Martijn: maybe I should post on the forum instead of rambling here [20:40:21] playzooki: i thought aggression was being aggressive :V [20:40:33] Martijn: thing is that control has something to do with also maintaining your defenses, control is something more defensive, aggression is something more offensive [20:41:13] Martijn: aggression is having a go at your opponent, control is making sure your opponent won't have a go at you [20:41:19] Martijn: I will totally post this [20:41:33] Martijn: I have to remove playzooki's quote from this monologue now [20:41:36] Martijn: thanks a lot playzooki |
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| The_Angry_Goat | Dec 10 2015, 03:21 PM Post #127 |
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¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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aggression is going on the attack - if you have a rammer and youre continuously ramming it into a spinner, than you are being very aggressive. but this might be a really bad strategy if youre a rammer with low armor, since youre gonna just end up being destroyed. it's very objective, but I like to think I do a good job of determining it . generally my scores for strategy are closer than my scores for other categories, unless one robot did something really clever or very dumb.
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‽ ROBOTICS (180 - 88 lifetime) Ruination 4 Nick's Fuzzy Rules: 7-1 Glitch: 5-3 Hazardous Waste Removal: 6-2 Khnum: 4-4 ROBOT2 Hat Garage: 0-0 Lilian: 0-0 Blue Max: 0-0 Neuromancer: 0-0 "giant fucking dinosaur" is in my top 5 picks to win the nut ~V900 So you're saying no arenas that fill the driver booths with powerful hallucinogenic gas that argle bargle THE ENEMY'S GATE IS SIDEWAYS ~ Rocket III ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
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| Hooray For Lexan | Dec 10 2015, 05:05 PM Post #128 |
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Heavyweight
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Not sure how much my opinion's worth as a new user, but personally I'd go with the definition of aggression used by RoboGames:
In this case, each of three judges would award 5 aggression points. So in summary, aggression = trying semi-competently to attack your opponent, and you must actually move towards them. OTOH, I'd define "strategy" as overall control of the match and of your robot. For example, consistently hitting your opponent from the side would improve your strategy score, as would pushing or flipping them into a wall or hazard or taking control of them with a clamp, lifter, or crusher. On the other hand, doing dumb stuff like driving yourself into a wall of hazard, consistently missing with your weapon, or other "goofs." A spectacular escape from an opponent or hazard might also improve your strategy score. Examples:
As with aggression, each of three judges awards 5 total strategy points, based on who did best overall during the match. |
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"you can give a fuck, just don't give too much of a fuck. there's an optimal level of fuckiness, and if you exceed your fuck quota you'll burn out." - BEES Trihunter on V900's New Undercutter: Spoiler: click to toggle
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| The_Angry_Goat | Dec 10 2015, 06:18 PM Post #129 |
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¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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![]() I like what you've brought up, and tbh I havent been thinking much about aggression in terms of weapons, just in terms of moving towards an opponent... might start thinking about that a bit differently Edited by The_Angry_Goat, Dec 10 2015, 06:19 PM.
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‽ ROBOTICS (180 - 88 lifetime) Ruination 4 Nick's Fuzzy Rules: 7-1 Glitch: 5-3 Hazardous Waste Removal: 6-2 Khnum: 4-4 ROBOT2 Hat Garage: 0-0 Lilian: 0-0 Blue Max: 0-0 Neuromancer: 0-0 "giant fucking dinosaur" is in my top 5 picks to win the nut ~V900 So you're saying no arenas that fill the driver booths with powerful hallucinogenic gas that argle bargle THE ENEMY'S GATE IS SIDEWAYS ~ Rocket III ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
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| That Kode Guy | Jan 28 2018, 10:55 AM Post #130 |
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Ruiner of All
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so where are we at now, gents
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| GF93 | Jan 28 2018, 11:38 AM Post #131 |
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Vi veri veniversum vivus vici.
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Spoilers, I'm still the greatest.
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Ice Cubed Robotics "I will not die until I achieve something. Even though the ideal is high, I never give in. Therefore, I never die with regrets." Cherry Bomb Classic: Season 2 (8-0) Swiftsure- 2-0 Torque Dirty 2 Me- 2-0 Ayame- 1-0 Dead on Arrival- 1-0 Barley Picker- 1-0 Lethal Injection 3- 1-0 Robot Bastards 2 (5-5) Apathy & Lethargy- 2-1 Trump ex Machina- 0-3 Rainbow in the Dark- 3-1 (6-3) Ruination: The Upheaval (20-8) Ayame- 6-1 Marauder- 6-1 Dreadnought Mk3- 3-4 Lethal Injection 3- 5-2 ALL-TIME RECORD Wins: 347 Losses: 230
Notable Achievements on Advanced Robot Combat for make benefit glorious Team of Ice Cubed Robotics
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| That Kode Guy | Jan 28 2018, 11:40 AM Post #132 |
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Ruiner of All
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false no really though, where are we at in terms of metagame |
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| NFX | Jan 28 2018, 03:48 PM Post #133 |
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Fuck Bitches Get Crystals
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I think, with the exception of horizontal spinners, the current meta does a decent job of balancing various types of design while remaining fairly close to the IRL meta. Which, if you want that, is good. However, the downside of it is it allows - and I would even argue encourages - members to go full "vicious metabastard", i.e. hyper-analyzing the competitor's designs and stats thereof, putting a massive amount of emphasis on efficiency over creativity, for example. It almost boils ARC down to a series of equations. One way to resolve this, I'm hoping, is with the f u z z y r u l e s that have been discussed recently, removing as many hard numbers as possible. It's worth keeping in mind, though, that writers' discretion has kind of stopped being a thing, from what I can see. Other members have pointed out that writers have much less room to manouver with the hard and fast rules we have at the moment, and criticism will possibly happen more often with a vaguer ruleset as different writers interpret different matchups in different ways. I think that's a two-way street, though: writers accept that they won't be able to make everybody happy with their results, and competitors accept that there will be some results they disagree with. Just don't be like DRD and we should all be fine.
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Team Mongoose (358-215) "The Colour of Awesome" Braveheart / Crash Blossom / Depth Charge / Broken Ghost / Murder Death Unit / Agent X RoBattle Override - 13 pts MiDAS - 12 pts it was a gigantic masturbation of polygons :v - That Kode Guy | |
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| The_Angry_Goat | Jan 28 2018, 05:01 PM Post #134 |
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¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Fuzzy rules are bad and you should feel bad ![]() |
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‽ ROBOTICS (180 - 88 lifetime) Ruination 4 Nick's Fuzzy Rules: 7-1 Glitch: 5-3 Hazardous Waste Removal: 6-2 Khnum: 4-4 ROBOT2 Hat Garage: 0-0 Lilian: 0-0 Blue Max: 0-0 Neuromancer: 0-0 "giant fucking dinosaur" is in my top 5 picks to win the nut ~V900 So you're saying no arenas that fill the driver booths with powerful hallucinogenic gas that argle bargle THE ENEMY'S GATE IS SIDEWAYS ~ Rocket III ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
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| That Kode Guy | Jan 28 2018, 05:25 PM Post #135 |
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Ruiner of All
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ur bad nerd |
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| BEES | Jan 28 2018, 05:26 PM Post #136 |
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I've never lived by anyone's rules but my own.
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I don't like the sound of this 'fuzzy rule' thing... and this is the first I've heard about it. Just seems to be asking for tons of bias. I'm up for simplifying the rules to an extent though. There's a tug-of-war on ARC between making fights fair as possible, and making the rules accessible as possible. Those two things are at odds with each other and we've tried to find a compromise that everyone can live with over time. If you force writers to consider several different kinds of damage and armor scales that each have different situations that kick in... it just becomes too painful to write while thinking about all of that. Similarly, if you force entrants to read the Magna Carta and look for the sentence that affects their design it's not very fun. I think we've all realized that by now. On the flipside without any damage scale at all, we go back to the years when 5 armor robots could beat 14 weapon spinners. Edited by BEES, Jan 28 2018, 05:39 PM.
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| Mole55 | Jan 28 2018, 05:50 PM Post #137 |
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See Syl, no creativity!
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The problem with writer's discretion is that that can become unwritten rules, which can be just as bad for newcomers. For example: 4wd static wedges, and traction ratios. When I started out, they weren't in the rules iirc. Hence Dock Leaf being a giant mess. |
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North-West Sheds: 26-56 New Blood Tournament HW: The Animals: 3-1 Robot Fight Night MW: Ikea's Guard Dog: 2-1 HW: Dock Leaf 2: 1-2 The Gentleman's Club FW: Mr Halsworth: 1-0 HW: Fathom: 1-1 Notable Results: Tyrian reaching the playoffs in CBC1 Sleipnir reaching the playoffs in R.O.B.O.T.S The Animals coming 2nd in New Blodo Not including rumbles, loaned robots, friendlies or tag-teams. Spoiler: click to toggle
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| V900 | Jan 28 2018, 06:12 PM Post #138 |
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Rubber Duck Enthusiast
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ding ding ding, we have a winner folks. I don't even know how many various questions I had to ask in the discord chat back when I was making my CBC2 robots (it was many, I can assure you that much), because of all the unwritten stuff in the ARC rules. That's why I explicitly wrote down rules for R4 like what wedges get under each other, and including a link to the namesake of the Parabolic Trajectory rule. Although it was already enforced in the regular rules without telling anyone, it helps to have it explained for people who don't have the entire ruleset memorized front-to-back. |
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| Madman | Jan 28 2018, 11:49 PM Post #139 |
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The Shit Disturber
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I know that I've mainly appeared to support the fuzzy rule set up to now, but it's not an entirely accurate representation of my opinion. To be totally unhelpful here and solve nothing, I'll just say that I'm of two minds here. I do think that the metabastard game needs to have the brakes put on it, and I say that as one of the most vicious of metabastards. It's a game that I can win, but it gets exhausting and less than fun after awhile. However, I disagree with the assertion that it discourages creativity in designs. Firebird, despite being walker trash, was a fundamentally creative design. Black Dog definitely pushed the numbers to their limits but was a unique approach to a drum bot. Both won titles. In terms of a fuzzy ruleset, I've heard people claim that it definitely allows more room for bias in results. It straight up does, and that's something that I'm very leery about, especially as someone who's not really a member of ARC's inner circle. However, the current ruleset has its own biases. The only difference is that these come into play ahead of tournaments, when the rules are being discussed. Think of the million and one Alex-vs-Gabe clashes, for example. Both played the metabastard game to its hilt but had different design and build philosophies. You have everyone jockeying for the set of rules that they like most and that benefits their preferred designs and weapon types. That's one of the reasons that the run-up to majors has become so painful and full of BS and acrimony. Depending on who does the best job of getting their preferred provisions into the ruleset, when the tournament starts, certain designs are markedly better off than others. The entire makeup of the tournament is biased. A 'fuzzy' rule set sounds good in theory, and I'm not against piloting it in practice for a mid-tier tournament. The only way to really evaluate it is to see it in action. Edited by Madman, Jan 28 2018, 11:51 PM.
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Tartarus Robotics Group: 102-32 ||| Black Dog ||| Hellhound SHW: Morality (1-0), Krakatoa (6-1), Neon Rampage (0-0), Intimidator (0-0) HW: Hellhound (29-11), Meanstreak (10-3), Blood Eagle (0-0) MW: Black Dog (10-1), Sundancer (13-2), Eye of Newt (3-0) LW: Savage (3-4), Wild Child (0-1), Hoarfrost (11-4), Krakatoa XS (3-1) FW: Talons Out! (10-3), Hellcat (0-0) HBW: Tiger (1-1), Midnight Sun (0-0) Tournaments Entered "My friend and i may have possibly made a nuke/exponentially growing fully automated chicken farm in minecraft" - The_Angry_Goat "That slash is doing some hard work there" - Trihunter | |
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11:41 AM Jul 13
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. generally my scores for strategy are closer than my scores for other categories, unless one robot did something really clever or very dumb.



11:41 AM Jul 13