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| Debate for the whole melty-FBS thing | |
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| Topic Started: Jul 8 2016, 01:02 PM (195 Views) | |
| That Kode Guy | Jul 8 2016, 01:02 PM Post #1 |
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Ruiner of All
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I'm getting ready to leave for work, but I'm just going to leave this thread here because it's caused quite a bit of controversy. ![]() What is a melty-FBS? What exactly does it do? What are the potential advantages/disadvantages? What rules does it fall under? Those are the questions that people, veteran or rookie, are going to be asking. And I think said subject deserves to be in particular debate. So get debating. |
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| The_Angry_Goat | Jul 8 2016, 01:03 PM Post #2 |
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¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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my and Alex's (monsterworks) debate, as it stands
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‽ ROBOTICS (180 - 88 lifetime) Ruination 4 Nick's Fuzzy Rules: 7-1 Glitch: 5-3 Hazardous Waste Removal: 6-2 Khnum: 4-4 ROBOT2 Hat Garage: 0-0 Lilian: 0-0 Blue Max: 0-0 Neuromancer: 0-0 "giant fucking dinosaur" is in my top 5 picks to win the nut ~V900 So you're saying no arenas that fill the driver booths with powerful hallucinogenic gas that argle bargle THE ENEMY'S GATE IS SIDEWAYS ~ Rocket III ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
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| The_Angry_Goat | Jul 8 2016, 01:37 PM Post #3 |
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¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Continuation, resolution?
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‽ ROBOTICS (180 - 88 lifetime) Ruination 4 Nick's Fuzzy Rules: 7-1 Glitch: 5-3 Hazardous Waste Removal: 6-2 Khnum: 4-4 ROBOT2 Hat Garage: 0-0 Lilian: 0-0 Blue Max: 0-0 Neuromancer: 0-0 "giant fucking dinosaur" is in my top 5 picks to win the nut ~V900 So you're saying no arenas that fill the driver booths with powerful hallucinogenic gas that argle bargle THE ENEMY'S GATE IS SIDEWAYS ~ Rocket III ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
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| The_Angry_Goat | Jul 8 2016, 01:40 PM Post #4 |
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¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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essentially, a melty/FBS is still perfectly possible under my rules, it just doesn't work as a 3-part cluster because 3-part clusters will never work well
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‽ ROBOTICS (180 - 88 lifetime) Ruination 4 Nick's Fuzzy Rules: 7-1 Glitch: 5-3 Hazardous Waste Removal: 6-2 Khnum: 4-4 ROBOT2 Hat Garage: 0-0 Lilian: 0-0 Blue Max: 0-0 Neuromancer: 0-0 "giant fucking dinosaur" is in my top 5 picks to win the nut ~V900 So you're saying no arenas that fill the driver booths with powerful hallucinogenic gas that argle bargle THE ENEMY'S GATE IS SIDEWAYS ~ Rocket III ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
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| Wolf51-50 | Jul 8 2016, 01:43 PM Post #5 |
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HmmmmMMMMMMM......
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Why. Why so many words all in one quote |
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Alpha Robotics- Embrace the Carnage! Upcoming tournaments Reckoning: Revival Vovoka 0-0 (Lifetime 6-2) Current Tournaments: Ruination 4: The Upheaval LW: White Lightning 0-2 (Lifetime 3-5) MW: Diablo Genesis 0-2(Lifetime 5-2) HW: Coup de Grâce 1-1 (Lifetime 12-4)[currently reining HW CHAMPION] SHW: Fenrir 2-0 (Lifetime 2-1) "hey, that's my underground sex dungeon, not yours!" - The_Angry_Goat | |
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| The_Angry_Goat | Jul 8 2016, 01:51 PM Post #6 |
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¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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It's quite a conversation |
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‽ ROBOTICS (180 - 88 lifetime) Ruination 4 Nick's Fuzzy Rules: 7-1 Glitch: 5-3 Hazardous Waste Removal: 6-2 Khnum: 4-4 ROBOT2 Hat Garage: 0-0 Lilian: 0-0 Blue Max: 0-0 Neuromancer: 0-0 "giant fucking dinosaur" is in my top 5 picks to win the nut ~V900 So you're saying no arenas that fill the driver booths with powerful hallucinogenic gas that argle bargle THE ENEMY'S GATE IS SIDEWAYS ~ Rocket III ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
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| The Monsterworks | Jul 8 2016, 10:20 PM Post #7 |
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Ridiculum et Terribilis
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Challenge Accepted. They're going to go winless with only 12 weapon power, but I'm entering them anyway for aesthetic purposes and to make you feel bad. Also, I wasn't exactly clear as to what you meant before with the multi-weapons rule. It seemed as if the speed points for melties would be lumped in with the weapon stat and that cumulative stat would be subject to the multi-weapons rule, resulting in something like 11 speed and 11 effective weapon power for an 8/8 melty-FBS. That would indeed have been absurd and pointless. Basically, I'll pilot your rules in Showbots and mine in CBC and compare performance. If either seems broken or has obvious exploits, we can fix them and/or decide later. Edited by The Monsterworks, Jul 8 2016, 10:46 PM.
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Wins: a bunch Losses: more every week! Mastodon (Extinction) || Osiris (Armageddon!) || Elrathia (ROBOTS) | |
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| The_Angry_Goat | Jul 8 2016, 11:39 PM Post #8 |
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¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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I'm entering a ridiculous melty spinner in your tournament now
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‽ ROBOTICS (180 - 88 lifetime) Ruination 4 Nick's Fuzzy Rules: 7-1 Glitch: 5-3 Hazardous Waste Removal: 6-2 Khnum: 4-4 ROBOT2 Hat Garage: 0-0 Lilian: 0-0 Blue Max: 0-0 Neuromancer: 0-0 "giant fucking dinosaur" is in my top 5 picks to win the nut ~V900 So you're saying no arenas that fill the driver booths with powerful hallucinogenic gas that argle bargle THE ENEMY'S GATE IS SIDEWAYS ~ Rocket III ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
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| The Monsterworks | Jul 10 2016, 10:11 PM Post #9 |
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Ridiculum et Terribilis
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So I guess that I should add some final clarity and postscript to the melty-fbs debate. 1) A lot of the debate was based around a misunderstanding. Gabe's position seemed to be that 'they're both weapons'. I interpreted that as both the speed stat and weapon stat for a melty-FBS are essentially weapons, so they should be counted as one stat for the purpose of weapon splitting, e.g. an 8 speed and 8 weapon melty-fbs effectively has 16 weapon and that should be subject to the multiweapon rule, leaving it with 11 movement and 11 total weapon power. That indeed would've killed the melty-fbs idea. It's also rather stupid, in retrospect. In reality, since melty speed has always been determined by the weapon stat, he thought that the weapon stat should be subject to the multiweapon rule and split between melty drive speed and the weapon power of the FBS shell. That actually makes sense and is something that I can live with. It makes melty-FBS less tactically fun, but they still potentially work. 2) My system simply views the weapon stat as one thing: the spinning shell, and the speed stat as another: drive. there is a fundamental difference of approach. Gabe views a bot like this as a melty-brain that can augment its melty spinning with a weak FBS shell. I view it as a fast but underpowered shell spinner that usually moves normally but can 'go melty' and use its strong drivetrain to add pop to its spinning shell. 3) I quickly realized how potentially broken a system like the one I was proposing is, and now that Gabe's meaning is clearer, his as well. During our discussion and others, I proposed two fixes: The first is that when going melty, a melty-fbs translates at either half or a quarter of its normal speed, I have yet to decide which. The second is that recoil damage and self-KO potential have to exist. However, there are two separate spinning parts: the body and the shell. Take, for example, an 8 speed 8 weapon melty-FBS. When it contacts an opposing bot, its spinning shell is moving with a total weapon power of 16 (eight self-generated and eight coming from the chassis spinning). From both a reality-based and balance standpoint, it should therefore be subject to self-damage as if it is a 16 power spinner, meaning that it requires 11 armour to prevent it from wrecking itself. However, the body, when contact is made, is spinning simultaneously, just with a weapon power of eight. The incoming deceleration shock is only eight, as opposed to sixteen. This pseudo-weapon would only need an armour value of three to avoid self-KO. Basically, if their armour isn't high enough, melty-FBS will eventually neuter themselves and be left only as weak melties with warped and jammed spinning shells, trying to cling on for the remainder of a match after dealing some devastating blows early on. It's a little bit complicated, but then again, so is this design. 4) Basically, under my system, you could make a sixteen power, eight speed melty-fbs with the following stats: 8 speed, 8 weapon, 7 armour, 6 traction, 1 torque. It would drive around the arena with 8 speed, and translate with 4 or 2 speed (depending on whether I go with 1/2 of 1/4 speed). However, it would lose the use of its shell after five hits. If you were to take one point from speed and put it into armour, the melty-fbs would then fatigue but not knock its shell out and it would lose both one weapon power and one speed. 5) Under Gabe's system, you could make a sixteen power, eight speed melty-fbs with the following stats: 8 speed, 12 weapon (8 melty speed/8 shell), 8 armour, 1 traction, 1 torque. It wouldn't be able to drive around the arena with any control, but would translate at eight speed and have one extra point put into its armour. If you were to take one point from speed, it would then hit with fifteen weapon power and possess eleven armour, meaning that it wouldn't knock its shell out or even fatigue. That, in my opinion, is actually more broken and vague. 6) I think that this debate has revealed some fundamental flaws with the existing melty stat rules. Melties have always struggled to be competitive for a few reasons: low speed, vague understanding of what determines their control, vulnerability to being high-sided, and lack of armour bonus. There isn't much that can be done about the latter two issues, but the first two rankle especially. Having their actual speed determined by their weapon stat and having them require no traction always seemed a bit weird to me - like a stop gap solution eventually just kept because whatever. 7) Why not have a melty's translating speed simply be equal to 1/4 of their speed stat, rounded to the nearest whole (up in the case of a .5)? Also, why not have them require traction in order to translate with control? This makes determining their actual degree of control much easier. Basically, what this means is that melties don't have to randomly dump two or three points into weapon to determine their translating speed, but they have to dump those points into traction instead. What it means is that now most melties get to move at a speed of 3-4 instead of 2-3, which is a small but welcome bump and they have a control ratio that can actually be seen and avoids being vague. I think it would make traditional melties a bit more competitive. |
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Wins: a bunch Losses: more every week! Mastodon (Extinction) || Osiris (Armageddon!) || Elrathia (ROBOTS) | |
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| Siphai | Feb 3 2017, 04:21 PM Post #10 |
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The Guy
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We should just stat meltybrains the same as other conventional spinners with the caveat that we recognize they technically hit harder (more mass) while they can't move while spinning up and have weaker movement overall. |
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Team Targeted - (36-12) Robot Bastards Dr. P: 4-8 Square Wave: 11-1 Snijmachine: 10-2 Parabolic Trajectory: 11-1 | |
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