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Bot-O-Rama 2016 - Discussion
Topic Started: Dec 29 2015, 01:03 AM (3,781 Views)
NWOWWE
Member Avatar
Team Blood Gulch Motto
Well I'm not actually in this tournament, but maybe I'll get in on this discussion.

Quote:
 
Because your shell has a large diameter and a lot of mass, its rotational speed is low compared to his tiny disc.
Granted my own physics understanding is generally lacking, but with this point we're talking about two things that are moving at pretty high RPMs. I'm just not sure how one of them being a bit on the faster side (and we can only guess at the numbers because there's no way for us to actually measure them) would make all that much of a difference here.

As Kody said, detailed physics knowledge isn't a prerequisite for competing in ARC tournaments. You can boil this down quite sufficiently to "fast spinning thing hitting fast spinning thing" and more or less use the design and stats of the weapons involved to answer any disputes over who can hurt who more.

Quote:
 
The other issue is that even though weapon spinup time is basically independent of power
Wait, I thought it had been clearly established that weapon power very much dictated weapon spinup time. Now I'm REALLY confused. :wat:
Area51Escapee,Jan 30 2011
01:27 AM
Spatula,Jan 29 2011
11:32 PM
I should go 3-1 this week but it'll probably be something like 0-4 or 0-5.

It sucks going 0-5. You lose all 4 of your bot fights for the week and you also lose at life.
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Hooray For Lexan
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Heavyweight
KodeBreaker
Mar 7 2016, 12:49 PM
The thing is, these specific physics have never really been applied in that big of a magnitude in ARC tournaments. The tournaments have been, to quote John aka StarlessSoldier:
StarlessSoldier
 
...designed as a way for those who cannot build bots to compete in an interesting way (if every single competitor built real bots we'd all look like douchebags for doing this). CFL was not designed for physicists or mechanical engineers, it was designed for regular guys, most of which are still in high school.
Maybe I'm being a bit unreasonable with this contrast, and if so then I'm sorry. If you're applying this stuff to your tournament, then I'm fine with it; everyone has their own methods when they create a tournament. But the bottom line is that you cannot ignore the CFL ruleset if you don't apply your own ruleset. As such, spin-up time has always been calculated by weapon power, and nowadays the greater the weapon power, the faster it manages to spin up regardless of diameter, center of gravity, or MOI. We've all done it like that. Bot-O-Rama's additional rules do not specify anything about dimensions, friction, or any sort of physics. This is why I am somewhat disgruntled by the result.

I'm not trying to make a big deal of this, but it just seems odd that you would use these physics when I've never seen it done before in a CFL/ARC tournament. Hell, maybe you're on to something and I've been writing matches wrong for years! I wouldn't doubt it. :v:

If anyone wants to weigh in, go ahead.
All right, I apologize if I've been applying the rules in a way that's inconsistent with the convention for ARC tournaments. I'm fairly new to this, and I'll try to take your advice into account on future matches. Honestly, I was hoping to have someone with more experience on the writing team to help me out with things like this (no offense Goat and Satan).

I'll admit I forgot about the spinup time rule, and went with my intuition that in real life spinners usually take a couple of seconds to get up to speed regardless of how powerful they are. I'll use the "higher weapon power = quicker spinups" rule in future matches, though.

Apart from that, my impression was that a robot's statistics were an abstraction of IRL traits - e.g. a spinner's power represents its overall ability to cause damage, including total KE, traction represents things like the effectiveness of the tire treads, whether the bot's weight is resting on the wheels vs. front skids, etc - but that basic rules of physics still applied (e.g. a vertical spinner with a wide wheelbase will be affected less by gyroscopic forces than a narrower one with the same weapon power, when two spinners in the same plane and opposite directions collide, the one with a faster tip speed usually wins).

Since I do know a lot of the physics involved, my instinct was to write matches based on my understanding of how robots would actually behave. I apologize if I'm going too far in-depth and coming up with results that don't reflect how the rules are normally interpreted.

Incidentally, NWOWWE, since you don't have bots entered in this tournament, would you be willing to act as a "rules interpretation" consultant, so if in future matches I, Goat, or Satan are unsure whether our understanding of something is how it's been traditionally interpreted we can PM you for clarification?
"you can give a fuck, just don't give too much of a fuck. there's an optimal level of fuckiness, and if you exceed your fuck quota you'll burn out."

- BEES

Trihunter on V900's New Undercutter:

Spoiler: click to toggle
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NWOWWE
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Team Blood Gulch Motto
Quote:
 
Since I do know a lot of the physics involved, my instinct was to write matches based on my understanding of how robots would actually behave. I apologize if I'm going too far in-depth and coming up with results that don't reflect how the rules are normally interpreted.
To be fair there's nothing inherently wrong about trying to be realistic with interpretation. The idea is just not to punish people who don't have as strong physics knowledge. I think that has gotten to be a little bit less of an issue over time as the people that have stuck with this long term have at least a passing understanding of the concepts involved. Still it wouldn't do to take that completely for granted though as you never know when someone new might turn up.

Quote:
 
Apart from that, my impression was that a robot's statistics were an abstraction of IRL traits - e.g. a spinner's power represents its overall ability to cause damage, including total KE, traction represents things like the effectiveness of the tire treads, whether the bot's weight is resting on the wheels vs. front skids, etc - but that basic rules of physics still applied (e.g. a vertical spinner with a wide wheelbase will be affected less by gyroscopic forces than a narrower one with the same weapon power, when two spinners in the same plane and opposite directions collide, the one with a faster tip speed usually wins).
Again, nothing really "wrong" here, but at the end of the day the actual numbers behind the stats are still what counts. But certainly if something is designed in a less efficient (or even outright hindering i.e. 2WD ring spinner) then that can and should be taken into account.

Quote:
 
Incidentally, NWOWWE, since you don't have bots entered in this tournament, would you be willing to act as a "rules interpretation" consultant, so if in future matches I, Goat, or Satan are unsure whether our understanding of something is how it's been traditionally interpreted we can PM you for clarification?
Yeah I'd definitely be down for that. Though if you have the option it might be better to message me on Facebook instead of PMing here as the Zetaboards PM system sucks. It's one regret I have of upgrading from the Invisionfree system :v:
Area51Escapee,Jan 30 2011
01:27 AM
Spatula,Jan 29 2011
11:32 PM
I should go 3-1 this week but it'll probably be something like 0-4 or 0-5.

It sucks going 0-5. You lose all 4 of your bot fights for the week and you also lose at life.
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scorpion1m
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the broniest robot fan
hope i can get some wins
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NWOWWE
Member Avatar
Team Blood Gulch Motto
scorpion1m
Mar 7 2016, 03:15 PM
hope i can get some wins
$50 and I can "advise" them to read your RPs more charitably. ;)
Area51Escapee,Jan 30 2011
01:27 AM
Spatula,Jan 29 2011
11:32 PM
I should go 3-1 this week but it'll probably be something like 0-4 or 0-5.

It sucks going 0-5. You lose all 4 of your bot fights for the week and you also lose at life.
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scorpion1m
Member Avatar
the broniest robot fan
NWOWWE
Mar 7 2016, 03:17 PM
scorpion1m
Mar 7 2016, 03:15 PM
hope i can get some wins
$50 and I can "advise" them to read your RPs more charitably. ;)
i'm only here for fun any way my robots have already rebel agents one another

http://scorpion1m.deviantart.com/art/just-a-random-bot-o-rama-fight-595248166?ga_submit_new=10%253A1457382046

and they may be more focused on the uk championship later in the year
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NWOWWE
Member Avatar
Team Blood Gulch Motto
scorpion1m
Mar 7 2016, 03:22 PM
NWOWWE
Mar 7 2016, 03:17 PM
scorpion1m
Mar 7 2016, 03:15 PM
hope i can get some wins
$50 and I can "advise" them to read your RPs more charitably. ;)
i'm only here for fun any way my robots have already rebel agents one another
I was willing to negotiate down to $20! :v:

.....damn :suicide:
Area51Escapee,Jan 30 2011
01:27 AM
Spatula,Jan 29 2011
11:32 PM
I should go 3-1 this week but it'll probably be something like 0-4 or 0-5.

It sucks going 0-5. You lose all 4 of your bot fights for the week and you also lose at life.
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The_Angry_Goat
Member Avatar
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
No blackmailing new members :P

HDIT
 
I'll admit I forgot about the spinup time rule, and went with my intuition that in real life spinners usually take a couple of seconds to get up to speed regardless of how powerful they are. I'll use the "higher weapon power = quicker spinups" rule in future matches, though.


this rule really needs some adjustment. we should still try to emulate reality, at least IMO :v: . The problem is, it's highly dependent on a number of factors (ex. Rambyte took forever to spin up in the old Battlebots, ziggo took 6 seconds, and hazard was spinning nearly immediately), and I dont think that a weapon spin-up stat is a good idea. so probably just a writer's intuition sorta thing where bigger stuff takes longer to spin up unless the owner of that robot knows some sort of fancy technology that lets them get around that rule, and they can adequately explain said technology (which is what we do for most other things that are left up to visual interpretation, like wedges).

At any rate, I'm a fan of you writing things in a realistic sense, especially if you know how stuff works with the physics. I usually have a vague idea as to how it works, just because I've worked with and seen many physical things impact one another in various ways, although that stuff is often beyond what I can comprehend even with a lot of study, unfortunately. where was I going with this :v: . uh, yeah, I like that you know these things. All of the writers have a different style, and variation is nice.

words are difficult :v:
‽ ROBOTICS (180 - 88 lifetime)

Ruination 4
Nick's Fuzzy Rules: 7-1
Glitch: 5-3
Hazardous Waste Removal: 6-2
Khnum: 4-4


ROBOT2
Hat Garage: 0-0
Lilian: 0-0
Blue Max: 0-0
Neuromancer: 0-0

"giant fucking dinosaur" is in my top 5 picks to win the nut ~V900
So you're saying no arenas that fill the driver booths with powerful hallucinogenic gas that argle bargle THE ENEMY'S GATE IS SIDEWAYS ~ Rocket III
Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image
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NWOWWE
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Team Blood Gulch Motto
The_Angry_Goat
Mar 7 2016, 04:11 PM
No blackmailing new members :P
Blackmailing is such a dirty word. I prefer extortion. :P

Quote:
 
this rule really needs some adjustment. we should still try to emulate reality, at least IMO :v: . The problem is, it's highly dependent on a number of factors (ex. Rambyte took forever to spin up in the old Battlebots, ziggo took 6 seconds, and hazard was spinning nearly immediately), and I dont think that a weapon spin-up stat is a good idea.
Weapon spin-up time used to be determined more along those lines, kind of. It was up to writers interpretation, but it was mostly based on how the design looked.

Quote:
 
so probably just a writer's intuition sorta thing where bigger stuff takes longer to spin up unless the owner of that robot knows some sort of fancy technology that lets them get around that rule, and they can adequately explain said technology (which is what we do for most other things that are left up to visual interpretation, like wedges).
Actually this is the kind of thing we don't want. Namely people that are more experienced in building bots having a decided advantage over people that don't. It's how things like magnets and spring loaded wedges ended up being banned. More tech savvy people were able to exploit them to make them nigh-invincible against wedges entered by more novice builders.

That said we do have a "prove it" rule for things like walkers/shufflers and omni-drive bots where someone entering those kind of designs need to prove they know how the system works in respect to their design to be allowed to enter it. This is to prevent any fool from entering a walker or whatever just to get the stat point bonus even if their CAD makes no sense as a walker.

It's also a bit dicey about how we would exactly prove that someone's concept would work as designed since the bots don't actually exist and there's no way to actually test them out. So as a rule weapon systems are defined by how they look and what their stats are and we pretty much leave it at that.
Area51Escapee,Jan 30 2011
01:27 AM
Spatula,Jan 29 2011
11:32 PM
I should go 3-1 this week but it'll probably be something like 0-4 or 0-5.

It sucks going 0-5. You lose all 4 of your bot fights for the week and you also lose at life.
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NoiseyGiraffe
Member Avatar
Middleweight
Great close fight between Nurse Killjoy and Answering Chord. Gutted I lost by 1 point on a judges decision!
Posted Image

REDDIT
Labyrinth - 4-0

ROBOTS II*
FW - Pancake - 0-0
HW - Vertigo 3 - 0-0

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The_Angry_Goat
Member Avatar
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
there's gonna be a lot of last minute RPing, isnt there
‽ ROBOTICS (180 - 88 lifetime)

Ruination 4
Nick's Fuzzy Rules: 7-1
Glitch: 5-3
Hazardous Waste Removal: 6-2
Khnum: 4-4


ROBOT2
Hat Garage: 0-0
Lilian: 0-0
Blue Max: 0-0
Neuromancer: 0-0

"giant fucking dinosaur" is in my top 5 picks to win the nut ~V900
So you're saying no arenas that fill the driver booths with powerful hallucinogenic gas that argle bargle THE ENEMY'S GATE IS SIDEWAYS ~ Rocket III
Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image
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Badnik96
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You're just a voice pal, you don't know a damn thing about racing!
isn't there always? :V
Team Ignition
WhipCoil - The Crash & Burn Tournament 5 Champion
Redline - Robot Bastards LW Champion
Sling Shot - Bot-o-Rama 2016 Sportsman Champion
The Debilitator - Cherry Bomb Classic Lightweight Champion
Pyrite - FRR Backlash Lightweight Champion
Doomerang - Robot Fight Night Heavyweight Champion

Posted Image[/color]
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Hooray For Lexan
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Heavyweight
...and it turns out there WEREN'T a bunch of late RPs.

Jesus Christ guys, what the hell are you doing? Literally half the matches are forfeits.

Since basically nobody showed up for fights, I'm giving you an extension until next Saturday. I guess this actually works out since TotallyNotSatan would have been unable to write this week due to a trip.
"you can give a fuck, just don't give too much of a fuck. there's an optimal level of fuckiness, and if you exceed your fuck quota you'll burn out."

- BEES

Trihunter on V900's New Undercutter:

Spoiler: click to toggle
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Toxic
Member Avatar
Heavyweight
Shit Damn I am so sorry for that. I had a sticky note reminding me do mine and I still forgot. Getting to it now.
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Toxic
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Heavyweight
HotDealsInTexas
Mar 13 2016, 10:36 AM
...and it turns out there WEREN'T a bunch of late RPs.

Jesus Christ guys, what the hell are you doing? Literally half the matches are forfeits.

Since basically nobody showed up for fights, I'm giving you an extension until next Saturday. I guess this actually works out since TotallyNotSatan would have been unable to write this week due to a trip.
Aaaand in. Once again man, sorry for that. Won't happen again, buddy!
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The_Angry_Goat
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¯\_(ツ)_/¯
HotDealsInTexas
Mar 13 2016, 10:36 AM
...and it turns out there WEREN'T a bunch of late RPs.

Jesus Christ guys, what the hell are you doing? Literally half the matches are forfeits.

Since basically nobody showed up for fights, I'm giving you an extension until next Saturday. I guess this actually works out since TotallyNotSatan would have been unable to write this week due to a trip.
No guarantees that I will be able to write next weekend (volunteering at a FIRST event), so if you have a match that I am writing, please RP for it by Thursday

and yeah this stuff happens sometimes :v:
‽ ROBOTICS (180 - 88 lifetime)

Ruination 4
Nick's Fuzzy Rules: 7-1
Glitch: 5-3
Hazardous Waste Removal: 6-2
Khnum: 4-4


ROBOT2
Hat Garage: 0-0
Lilian: 0-0
Blue Max: 0-0
Neuromancer: 0-0

"giant fucking dinosaur" is in my top 5 picks to win the nut ~V900
So you're saying no arenas that fill the driver booths with powerful hallucinogenic gas that argle bargle THE ENEMY'S GATE IS SIDEWAYS ~ Rocket III
Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image
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scorpion1m
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the broniest robot fan
when will the next results be anonced
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TotallyNotSatan
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Middleweight
I'm gonna be able to write them this week. Don't fear!

And on a side note, our robotics team failed miserably.
Record:

RUINATION: THE UPHEAVAL
Altair: 0-0
Discordi: 0-0
Ballast: 0-0
Bozo: 0-0
Total: 0-0

PRESSURE DROP
Discordi: 0-0
Total: 0-0

Final Total: 0-0
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The_Angry_Goat
Member Avatar
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
oh hey do you do FIRST? what team?
‽ ROBOTICS (180 - 88 lifetime)

Ruination 4
Nick's Fuzzy Rules: 7-1
Glitch: 5-3
Hazardous Waste Removal: 6-2
Khnum: 4-4


ROBOT2
Hat Garage: 0-0
Lilian: 0-0
Blue Max: 0-0
Neuromancer: 0-0

"giant fucking dinosaur" is in my top 5 picks to win the nut ~V900
So you're saying no arenas that fill the driver booths with powerful hallucinogenic gas that argle bargle THE ENEMY'S GATE IS SIDEWAYS ~ Rocket III
Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image
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Hooray For Lexan
Member Avatar
Heavyweight
scorpion1m
Mar 15 2016, 05:39 AM
when will the next results be anonced
On Sunday or Monday morning. Like I said, half the matches were forfeits so I extended the deadline a week.

Speaking of which, BrianTheAmerican and Britespark you better get in here. I really don't want to have to write Blaze getting stuck on its side again, or Buzzkill beating a 14+ WEP horizontal spinner with 5 armor AGAIN.

EDIT: By the way, I have a quick strategy tip: I notice The Horney One's arm has a very long stroke and a very high power. If you can pick an opponent off the ground and it can't escape, you may be able to get an OOTA by reversing up to the wall and giving it a reverse suplex.
Edited by Hooray For Lexan, Mar 15 2016, 02:00 PM.
"you can give a fuck, just don't give too much of a fuck. there's an optimal level of fuckiness, and if you exceed your fuck quota you'll burn out."

- BEES

Trihunter on V900's New Undercutter:

Spoiler: click to toggle
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