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Ruination: The Contagion - Discussion
Topic Started: Aug 20 2014, 11:10 AM (8,092 Views)
Badnik96
Member Avatar
You're just a voice pal, you don't know a damn thing about racing!
i think just your callousness in general, idk
Team Ignition
WhipCoil - The Crash & Burn Tournament 5 Champion
Redline - Robot Bastards LW Champion
Sling Shot - Bot-o-Rama 2016 Sportsman Champion
The Debilitator - Cherry Bomb Classic Lightweight Champion
Pyrite - FRR Backlash Lightweight Champion
Doomerang - Robot Fight Night Heavyweight Champion

Posted Image[/color]
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Siphai
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The Guy
Badnik96
Mar 23 2015, 02:15 PM
actually to be 100% honest i was the one that told kody what was going on in the robot bastards chat and honestly looking back if i had known what it would have caused i would have stayed the fuck away. i feel like i'm responsible for this whole mess and i feel like shit about it
i don't have any problems with it cause i don't think there was anything said that was offensive. i think at most i said i hated some results or shittalked, but they weren't kody's results and i wasn't shittalking kody. I don't think there was anything said in there that would've caused kody to ragequit
Team Targeted - (36-12) Robot Bastards

Dr. P: 4-8
Square Wave: 11-1
Snijmachine: 10-2
Parabolic Trajectory: 11-1
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Siphai
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The Guy
Badnik96
Mar 23 2015, 02:18 PM
i think just your callousness in general, idk
:dirk: If You Don't Like Me At My Best You Don't Deserve Me At My Worst :dirk:
Team Targeted - (36-12) Robot Bastards

Dr. P: 4-8
Square Wave: 11-1
Snijmachine: 10-2
Parabolic Trajectory: 11-1
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V900
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Rubber Duck Enthusiast
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playzooki
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oi
Ruination has 9 letters. the square root of 9 is 3. illuminati triangle has 3 sides. illuminati confirm
March or Die - Ruination: The Omen MW Last Eight, Ruination: The Omen Tag Team Champion (with the Green Hornet / NWOWWE), Ruination: The Contagion MW CHAMPION
Corrupt Politician - Reign of Steel SHW Finalist
Murder Is Fun! - Reign of Steel HW Semi-Finalist
Shrek - Hammerfall 4th Place

GF93
 
I'm starting to regret entering.
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MadBull
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Superheavyweight
playzooki
Mar 23 2015, 03:50 PM
illuminati triangle has 3 sides.
as opposed to an ordinary triangle?
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Badnik96
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You're just a voice pal, you don't know a damn thing about racing!
triangles have 4 sides

wake up sheeple
Team Ignition
WhipCoil - The Crash & Burn Tournament 5 Champion
Redline - Robot Bastards LW Champion
Sling Shot - Bot-o-Rama 2016 Sportsman Champion
The Debilitator - Cherry Bomb Classic Lightweight Champion
Pyrite - FRR Backlash Lightweight Champion
Doomerang - Robot Fight Night Heavyweight Champion

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playzooki
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oi
9+10=21
March or Die - Ruination: The Omen MW Last Eight, Ruination: The Omen Tag Team Champion (with the Green Hornet / NWOWWE), Ruination: The Contagion MW CHAMPION
Corrupt Politician - Reign of Steel SHW Finalist
Murder Is Fun! - Reign of Steel HW Semi-Finalist
Shrek - Hammerfall 4th Place

GF93
 
I'm starting to regret entering.
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BEES
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I've never lived by anyone's rules but my own.
NWOWWE
Mar 23 2015, 02:08 PM
Well it's more in that it seemed to be an opinion that was floating around for some time before CB even started, and I presume was a major reason I wasn't asked to be part of the Robot Bastards staff (which is perfectly fine actually and I actually kind of liked having a break from writing after being on every staff since the FRR 4 playoffs).

All the same I don't want anyone to think I'm unapproachable. If I'm doing something dumb or you suspect I am, by all means let me know. I can be amazingly reasonable. :proud:
Well like... I don't hate your writing. Your fights are generally fair and impartial; it's just when Kody's in them that it seemed like he outperformed. Individually it's not that the fights were bad it's just that on the whole... over many fights... the 23/22s kept going his way without any clear reason as far as I could tell. I kept count of all my fights against Kody from Ruination 1 onwards... unless you happen to be the person who wrote ABR vs Blackrose in CBBR, then I'm pretty sure you haven't written a single win for me against one of Kody's strong bots in the past four years.

I've underlined the ones that could've gone the other way. Bolded the ones that I always felt should've gone the other way. I mean, I don't think my team's the best thing since the pocket in pita. Kody's totally countered me sometimes, and certainly if he'd won just a smaller majority of the fights that were close that'd be fine. But he won a staggering majority, and if the argument is that many of these fights are not close, or that I couldn't have won them, I just don't get why.

Losses:
ABR vs Anti-Virus
Stingray vs Luna
Parasite vs Cutie Honey
Sphere O' Fear vs Tax Cutter

Stingray vs Jinx
Parasite vs Spectrum of Eternity
MDU vs Tax Cutter

Influenza vs Luna (fs)
V'Ger vs Cutie Honey
Manta vs Teresa

Airazor vs Cherax
Barracuda vs Fulcrum
Parasite vs Mass Hypnosis (sfs)
Barracuda vs Fulcrum (sfs)

Microwave vs Kite
Station to Station vs Seras
Barracuda vs Industrial Bastardization


Wins:
ABR vs BlackRose
ABR vs Kite
Stingray vs SeC
ABR vs Scarab

Parasite vs Mass Hypnosis

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BEES
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I've never lived by anyone's rules but my own.
That's pretty much it really... that's pretty much what I was talking about with Kody, so there it is for everyone to digest. I have basically nothing else to complain about really. I feel like my matchups against everyone else have been fair. There have been some bullshit wins on my end, and some bullshit losses against other people, but on the whole I feel like I've done about how I should against everyone else.

The point isn't to go through every single one and argue about whether or not I deserved to lose, the point is that I'm curious how many of those you'd agree could've gone the other way vs how many you think were fights where I was countered. That's all. That's just a difference in opinion and I don't think we're going to change each other's opinions.

Also... I know the reasons for ABR vs Anti-Virus going the way it did, due to the confusion about the forks, and that that wouldn't have happened again afterwards probably. I also know that you didn't write the majority of these.

Okay... I'll shut up. :unsure:
Edited by BEES, Mar 23 2015, 05:03 PM.
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NWOWWE
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Team Blood Gulch Motto
Okay I can see what you're saying here. Without trudging through the old staff topics I honestly can't remember most of the ones I wrote from that list you had there and even then I'd have to then go back through the RPs to recreate my thought process for most of them.

From your perspective it's easy for me to say but almost impossible for me to really prove that there was/is no intentional bias in Kody's favor when I do a result for him. You say you tend to come up short against Kody's top shelf bots and from what we can see here with things collected together it's hard to argue that point.

Generally I try not to think about who beats who more often when deciding a result and just look at it by itself. I mean I wouldn't want to say "well I have person A beating B a lot lately so I better swing this close decision the other way just to help even things out", that wouldn't be any better.

The closest I could probably come to explaining it is that I may tend to look more favorably at certain kinds of strategies over others. So if someone tends to use those kind of strategies over another person not using them, then that could probably cause them to have a higher success ratio in otherwise close matchups. And I don't mean RP style, more like if they favor a more high risk tactic or something like that. Sometimes it could pay off, but if it doesn't in a close fight that can mean the all the difference. And again I can't really speak to how often that could have applied specifically in you vs. Kody matchups.
Area51Escapee,Jan 30 2011
01:27 AM
Spatula,Jan 29 2011
11:32 PM
I should go 3-1 this week but it'll probably be something like 0-4 or 0-5.

It sucks going 0-5. You lose all 4 of your bot fights for the week and you also lose at life.
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Siphai
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The Guy
NWOWWE
Mar 23 2015, 06:36 PM
Okay I can see what you're saying here. Without trudging through the old staff topics I honestly can't remember most of the ones I wrote from that list you had there and even then I'd have to then go back through the RPs to recreate my thought process for most of them.

From your perspective it's easy for me to say but almost impossible for me to really prove that there was/is no intentional bias in Kody's favor when I do a result for him. You say you tend to come up short against Kody's top shelf bots and from what we can see here with things collected together it's hard to argue that point.

Generally I try not to think about who beats who more often when deciding a result and just look at it by itself. I mean I wouldn't want to say "well I have person A beating B a lot lately so I better swing this close decision the other way just to help even things out", that wouldn't be any better.

The closest I could probably come to explaining it is that I may tend to look more favorably at certain kinds of strategies over others. So if someone tends to use those kind of strategies over another person not using them, then that could probably cause them to have a higher success ratio in otherwise close matchups. And I don't mean RP style, more like if they favor a more high risk tactic or something like that. Sometimes it could pay off, but if it doesn't in a close fight that can mean the all the difference. And again I can't really speak to how often that could have applied specifically in you vs. Kody matchups.
I think some of this might be like when Chris thought that I was intentionally writing losses against him, even though the thought had literally never crossed my mind (Even at the time of that argument, I couldn't recall a single fight I wrote for Chris outside of the Hot Shot vs. Servant match, which wasn't a great result because of Lian's poor minimalist RP). For me, the bias was just more towards newer players: I'd be more likely to give a 'worse' robot a win if the member was newer, simply because throwing them a bone would get them to stay around longer. This is kind of a brutal competition, and someone who's going 0-4 every week, even when they do try, is going to be really discouraging. I think a lot of my worse results stem from that, like Revolver Ocelot vs. Long Shot, where Ry Trapp had just come back for one tournament. It wasn't the driving reason why I had Long Shot win; I think that can be chalked up more or less to that one Philip idea of the Sucks To Be You fight where something just goes bad, but I will say the bias towards getting a member to stay around plays a part.

Which is shitty and by recognizing that bias I've tried to move away from that kind of thought process. Bias is an easy thing to have! Whether you actively think about it or not. I guess that's why I got so upset at people voting for their own matches in the playoffs; it wasn't so much that ya'll were voting on your own match, its that posts were made to the effect of "I don't have any bias, so I can judge my own match" which is something that I disagree with vehemently. Bias is almost inherently subconscious: the person that doesn't consider themselves racist also doesn't think twice about crossing the street when black people walk towards them. I'm not just making this up, this has been shown repeatedly in studies http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2014/05/inquiring-minds-david-amodio-your-brain-on-racism


Anyway, more or less, the Kody thing isn't chalked up to any one fight. It's just how the last seasons have gone in general:

40-4 (+8, first)
43-10 (+7, first)
36-8 (+3, first)
35-7 (+8, first)
19-13 (+1, tied for first)
29-10 (+3, first)

That's all of his tournaments going back to ruination, from CBBNBC, with the +number standing for how many wins he was above the next winningest team. I've said it before and I'll say it again: it's not like Kody was entering Underall, Barrier, Tank and Japanese School girl every single time. His robots weren't bad, but they were regularly outperforming themselves - and stuff like Spectrum, Jinx, and Cutie Honey were winning tournaments when (and I suppose this part is just my opinion) they aren't championship caliber robots. They're far from the only ones to win when (I felt) not being good enough to do so (Parabolic Trajectory thanks Agent X for laying down, and F-Dyansty's wonky wedge thanks the good lord the wedge stat existed) but the fact that it was tournament after tournament after tournament.

Shit, I can even give Ruination and the first Crazy Bots - his records in that were reasonable. But he's had less than 10 losses in the regular season (all those records include playoff wins and losses) for four straight seasons. That is unheard of. When Chris was winning like two tournaments a season in the ARC: Round Robin era, even he wasn't doing that well. Omegaforce didn't do that well in his best seasons. Dylan and I, the next best two, have never put together anything like that.

That's not to say he didn't deserve it. I wasn't around for the pre-LoRE seasons. But it is definitely a statistical abberation, and I go back into the old signup threads and look at his teams and wonder; what the heck. It's hard not to look at some of this stuff and think that there was some kind of subconscious bias; that in a 50/50 tossup match, one that could go either way, Kody got the benefit of the doubt and won it.

Which is a hard thing to accuse, and even harder to fix. What am I supposed to suggest? "Hey, if you think this match is close, don't have Kody win?" Like that's kind of a nonsensical suggestion. It is worth bringing up though, especially in light of a 40-4 season where this all seems farscial. I'm sure each match that Kody won has logical reasons for why he won, but when they start backing up over the course of seasons and hundreds of wins, you look at it all and you go "huh".

Martijn suggested that, it's not out of the realm of possibility for these wins to be stacked up through sheer luck, which does make sense. The stars aligned and everyone writing Kody's match just went, "yeah, here's a win". But that suggestion loses some credibility when it happens season after season. 40-4 looks like a ridiculous season, but when you compare it to his last four, or to his Ruination 1 season, there's not actually a huge difference. Its only about 2-3 wins better than his last 3 seasons.

Which brings us to Kody's performance in two other tournaments. In RoS, which admittedly is done under a different stat style, he went

Team Zlayerz 16-24

Now, admittedly his team was more 'experimental', but frankly I didn't see a huge leap in quality between that and his serious teams. Transgression was the obviously bad robot, but Bottom Feeder was better than Scarab in Ruination 2, Plata-O-Plomo is about as good as Mimete 1, Ride The Lightning is about as good as Fulcrum. The big difference here wasn't quality, but writing staff. Josh helped out with results, but Chris wrote pretty much all the results (as far as I know).

Then in Robot Bastards he went

Team Covenant (Kodebreaker)(28-16)

Not nearly bad. He actually had a really good team in RB, that I liked. All of his robots were good. But all of them also did about as well as they should have. Again, the difference here was writing staff, which was also vastly different from the writing staff that saw him get so many wins.

Its difficult to make this post because it sounds so accusatory. It's not meant to be. Its just meant to show how someone can look at these seasons, kody's record, and the writing staff, and make a connection. Idk.
Team Targeted - (36-12) Robot Bastards

Dr. P: 4-8
Square Wave: 11-1
Snijmachine: 10-2
Parabolic Trajectory: 11-1
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NWOWWE
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Team Blood Gulch Motto
Maybe there is something to be said for complacency in terms of how the having basically the same staff season after season. The same people doing the same basic thing time after time will probably end up thinking things over the same way. Maybe we need to have more shake-ups in staff on a regular basis so people don't settling into a routine when it comes to how they think of results.
Area51Escapee,Jan 30 2011
01:27 AM
Spatula,Jan 29 2011
11:32 PM
I should go 3-1 this week but it'll probably be something like 0-4 or 0-5.

It sucks going 0-5. You lose all 4 of your bot fights for the week and you also lose at life.
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BEES
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I've never lived by anyone's rules but my own.
NWOWWE
Mar 23 2015, 06:36 PM
From your perspective it's easy for me to say but almost impossible for me to really prove that there was/is no intentional bias in Kody's favor when I do a result for him. You say you tend to come up short against Kody's top shelf bots and from what we can see here with things collected together it's hard to argue that point.


Well, do you believe that is what should be happening? What do you think my win rate should be overall vs Kody?

What could I do to improve that win rate? From Ruination 1 to LORE I had clear answers to that question in my mind, and I felt like I put forward a stronger team each season. I was more mindful of what the writers liked to see in the stats, and I optimized my bots around the metagame more. And I think by Ruination: The Omen, I had three bots on my team which I had pretty much maxed out - ABR, Influenza, Stingray. I couldn't think of any way to make them better after that. It's just been cosmetic improvements really since then. I've had great win rates with these bots, and I've had strong seasons with them, but you've awarded Kody wins against all of them, though you've had them win against some very tough opposition on other teams.

NWOWWE
 
Generally I try not to think about who beats who more often when deciding a result and just look at it by itself. I mean I wouldn't want to say "well I have person A beating B a lot lately so I better swing this close decision the other way just to help even things out", that wouldn't be any better.

That's reasonable. I wouldn't want pity wins or charity.

NWOWWE
 
The closest I could probably come to explaining it is that I may tend to look more favorably at certain kinds of strategies over others. So if someone tends to use those kind of strategies over another person not using them, then that could probably cause them to have a higher success ratio in otherwise close matchups. And I don't mean RP style, more like if they favor a more high risk tactic or something like that. Sometimes it could pay off, but if it doesn't in a close fight that can mean the all the difference. And again I can't really speak to how often that could have applied specifically in you vs. Kody matchups.


You say there are certain strategies that you like, well we're all that way. We have different opinions on what's good. But I've fought Kody with pretty much every type of matchup, and I've tried a pretty diverse array of RPs, and nothing seems to convince you to give up the point. I also often do sort of 'gotcha' strategies in my RPs like Kody. I introduce novelties pretty often. I've kind of slacked off in recent tournies with these but even when I was putting the full juice into them in LORE and Ruination it didn't seem to net me anything. And I'm really not sure where to go from here. Which is why I'm having this conversation.

Because it's kind of not fun anymore. This whole thing we're doing is only fun if everyone has greater potential to lose, and everyone has some potential to win. I fail to see any evidence why I should enter a tournament where you, NFX, and Lian are writing, if Kody has also entered. I don't see the evidence to give me faith that you'll consider my strategies or my designs on equal terms with his, and not through a vastly more critical lens than his. So... where's the fun in that? That doesn't mean that you're "intentionally making me lose", or that any of the results you've written for me were out of malice. I guess I mean it more as a passive sort of question. What would it take for me to win against Scarab for instance, with ABR? What kind of RP would it take, or is it a hard counter in your opinion, and if so what design do you think counters Scarab? Y'know... just one example.

But at the same time, it wouldn't be fun retreating just to my tourneys or Chris's tourneys for safety. I see Kody as a friendly rival, and I get more enjoyment out of entering tournaments he's in than tournaments he's not in. I like the challenge of fighting someone tough. I want to compete with everyone, and I also like everyone... including you. And I want to find some way to win you over with my designs and my RPs, but I feel like I have nothing new to try anymore, and nothing has really worked.

We're also a small community and we kind of need everyone we can to stick around. So... where do we go from here?
Edited by BEES, Mar 23 2015, 08:49 PM.
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NWOWWE
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Team Blood Gulch Motto
Well like I was saying, I never really considered it favoring Kody over you. I'm probably not doing the best job explaining myself maybe because there is no real clear way to illustrate the situation here.

If me favoring Kody over you is something that has been actively happening (you've taken a closer look over things than I have and I'll take your word for it that maybe there is something there) then that is my fault. The closest I can come to maybe finding some reasoning kind of goes back to the stats posted about Kody's successful teams. For 4 of those tournaments I ended up finishing second place to Kody. Maybe what happens is that when you only have one competitor (and consistently the same one) that you can't seem to quite solve yourself, their team can start to feel just a little bit better than then they may actually be. Then you think "no one seems to lock things down quite as well as this guy, he just seems to pull out great strategy after great strategy". You start associating them what the best strategies should be, even if they might not be. And after writing season after season, especially when they came quicker in succession than they used to do, you don't really take the time at the end of the season to take stock and consider things. The next season has begun before you know and you never really shake that mindset of where you were with some competitors the season before. "This guy could do no wrong last time? Well shit and goddamn I can't see him missing a beat!" or "This other guy was having a rough stretch? That hard luck might still be lingering". And that's not right because each season should be a completely new beginning.

Outside of the last couple weeks worth of results for Crazy Bots I've actually had a fairly decent time away from the results writing scene. Probably longer than I've ever had since I became a member of the staff. With Robot Bastards and the upcoming LoRE (which I agreed to step away from the writing staff of) I'll have actually had the better part of a year to be competing in tournaments. So that the hope would be that the next tournament I'm called to be staff on whether it be Ruination (god willing) or FRR7 or something else, I'll be able to have a fresh new perspective on things, and with all discussion, rather wiser for the wear.


As a side note and I'm not sure if it would have any relevance to the situation or not, but all this got me thinking about it anyway. I reflected that I had kind of an odd introduction into the ARC staff. Certainly when I joined ARC I never really considered that I'd ever be part of the staff. The folks that were seemed pretty well established and I was more than happy to leave things to their experienced hands.

My joining was ultimately a matter of necessity rather than choice. Philip needed someone to decide the Finals he had bots competing in the FRR4 Finals, and I was the most readily available person at the time (this was the period in the transition between the former ARC boards and the Drowning City boards so it was a rather hectic time overall). At that time the only RPG writing I had ever done was for Pro Wrestling e-feds. And those are a fairly different beast from ARC even though they are both largely RP based. As anyone familiar with wrestling knows, like the real thing, e-fed results are typically per-determined a few weeks at a time. An individual win or loss for your character isn't nearly as significant as where the overall storyline takes them. ARC of course is based a more shall we say serious competition where every fight matters very much.

Anyway, I think it would be fair to say that it took me awhile to fully make the mental transition from one style to the other. It would also be fair to say that for the first two seasons really (through Redemption) there were plenty of results I had that plainly stunk. I was still learning the ropes of the competition since until then we had only run double elimn tournaments and outside of a few good runs with ToC, my bots were usually quickly eliminated. And back then I didn't really pay a whole lot of attention to anything that didn't involve my team. So now all of a sudden I was compelled to pay very close attention to EVERY team. It was overwhelming to be sure. And it lead to some questionable calls. Perhaps the most (in)famous of which was Stampede vs. Tank, which all these years later I recognize as a pretty poor effort on my part. And I'm sure I could dig up plenty others if I took the time. I'd like to think that there's been a marked improvement since then (spending about 8 years now writing results I'd have to pretty dim not to even improve by accident :P ). Like I said, maybe not all that relevant to the current situation, but it seemed interesting all the same. And in light of recent events it felt good to be able to finally really admit that I've certainly had my share of bad moments and I that I think I was able to markedly improve and I hope to be able to say the same again down the line.
Area51Escapee,Jan 30 2011
01:27 AM
Spatula,Jan 29 2011
11:32 PM
I should go 3-1 this week but it'll probably be something like 0-4 or 0-5.

It sucks going 0-5. You lose all 4 of your bot fights for the week and you also lose at life.
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BEES
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I've never lived by anyone's rules but my own.
Well, that all sounds very reasonable.

Can't say I really have anything else. I'm wary of my own sort of 'cabal' of writers developing insular opinions and I can see the potential for it as well. I think your suggestion of mixing up the staff is a great idea. That was actually part of my motivation with RB... I felt like you and Kody had written pretty much nonstop for the past several tournies and deserved a break, and I guess I also kinda wanted to challenge myself and see if I could finish a tourney without resorting to asking either of you for help.

Alex suggested submitting our teams privately to someone who isn't competing (Chris for instance) and revealing them when the tourney starts. That could add a really interesting twist to the strategy for a tourney, and maybe give more diverse outcomes because someone new could always get the drop on everyone else with their stat choices.

I kinda liked both of those ideas. I think we all had our own thoughts about how to combat "staff opinion creep". My idea up till now was using pre-made ROS-style RPs, partly because a lot of RPs kind of get into this dubious territory where they just try to refute people's bots rather than offer actual strategy (I do this too, as much as anyone, and I kinda don't like having to do it).
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Mystic2000
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The Mad Scientist of ARC
wow, jesus what the damn hell is happening here, this turned from a tourney thread in some kind of civil war, what's even the reason(s) for that ?
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Team Obscure:

"From the endless pit of darkness we arise, to make sure you'll never see the next sunrise"
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Siphai
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The Guy
Mystic2000
Mar 24 2015, 01:13 PM
wow, jesus what the damn hell is happening here, this turned from a tourney thread in some kind of civil war, what's even the reason(s) for that ?
I wouldn't call it a civil war, more of a revolution
Team Targeted - (36-12) Robot Bastards

Dr. P: 4-8
Square Wave: 11-1
Snijmachine: 10-2
Parabolic Trajectory: 11-1
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Siphai
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The Guy
the proletariat is seizing the means of production from the bourgeois
Team Targeted - (36-12) Robot Bastards

Dr. P: 4-8
Square Wave: 11-1
Snijmachine: 10-2
Parabolic Trajectory: 11-1
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NFX
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Fuck Bitches Get Crystals
Siphai
Mar 24 2015, 01:56 PM
the proletariat is seizing the means of production from the bourgeois
says the administrator
Team Mongoose (358-215)
"The Colour of Awesome"

Braveheart / Crash Blossom / Depth Charge / Broken Ghost / Murder Death Unit / Agent X

RoBattle
Override - 13 pts
MiDAS - 12 pts

it was a gigantic masturbation of polygons :v - That Kode Guy
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