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| Why be a Christian? | |
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| Topic Started: Thursday, 3. January 2013, 02:00 (377 Views) | |
| Rose of York | Thursday, 3. January 2013, 02:00 Post #1 |
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Christianity's teachings are, some say, outmoded. We hear that we are out of step. If conformity with society means accepting all that some other people think is OK, we become the slaves of "society". If Christian beliefs are regarded as outmoded, that's tough. The Churches and other faiths did not change society, some people did and I cannot for the life of me see why they should expect us to change our views. When we do not believe to be right something they consider to be acceptable we are outmoded bigots. When they raise objections to our beliefs and practices they are exercising their freedom. It works both ways! Church membership protects us from falling into the trap of being compliant with "currently acceptable ways of life". |
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Keep the Faith! | |
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| Penfold | Thursday, 3. January 2013, 02:42 Post #2 |
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but should have done, that'S what proclaiming the Gospel is all about. |
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| Rose of York | Thursday, 3. January 2013, 03:00 Post #3 |
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I will clarify that. The Churches are most other faiths do not seek to change society towards acceptance that behaviour the major faith condemn is currently acceptable. |
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Keep the Faith! | |
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| OsullivanB | Thursday, 3. January 2013, 05:59 Post #4 |
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Is proclaiming the Gospel essentially about changing society or is it about changing individual people? St Paul insisted on recognition of his status as a Roman citizen. He demanded to be tried in its central courts according to its laws. He made no complaint about its institutions or systems that I can recall.Jesus' criticisms were levelled against his coreligionists rather than the Roman occupiers. Jesus and in His name Paul called individuals to change. Society was left to its own devices. |
| "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer | |
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| garfield | Thursday, 3. January 2013, 10:18 Post #5 |
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Why be a Christian? Because it is true, the life death and resurrection of Jesus Christ happened and through him we come to knowlege and love of God and become citizens of His kingdom. This puts us out of step with the current state of society but this has always been the case, the early Christians proclaimed that there was no distinction between slaves and free men, in that case it was society which changed eventually but for hundreds of years slavery was an accepted part of society Christians kept slaves or were slaves and lived out their lives within those roles. Being Christians changed how they fulfilled those roles, with justice and mercy and love rather than callousness or cruelty and were probably regarded as odd by their pagan neighbours (when they weren't actually persecuting them) Today we have society (well some part of it) which wants to change the definition of marriage, how Christians will live with that is still being worked out. We will be regarded as odd by our atheist/agnostic neighbours hopefully we won't be persecuted but who knows? |
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| Penfold | Thursday, 3. January 2013, 11:18 Post #6 |
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And let me clarify. Society is a relationship among humans. it is a group of people. We as individuals collectively form society and if we as individuals fail live as Christians then the group as a whole will suffer. In short, we as a church must, as OSB points out, change ourselves to live as Christ would have us live but, if we each live as Christians then collectively we as members of Society will influence the laws and customs and general behaviour of the society in which we live. If the society is Unchristian; if the laws of society do not reflect Christian values; if society is rotten it is because we as members of society have failed to proclaim the Gospel effectively. Blame others if you wish, place the blame on some anonymous entity if you like but the reality remains the same. If we as Christians do not change society then we are part of the problem for society is nothing other than a collection of individuals in relationship with each other. Love of neighbour is at the heart of the Gospel, in other words changing society to ensure that all mankind is treated in accordance with Christian Values. It is not for us to force others to be Christian, it is however our role to be Christian towards others.
Why be a Christian? because I care about others, I care what happens in the society in which I live and I accept that I have a duty to help change society to ensure that my fellow human beings are treated with the same love and compassion that Christ shows towards me. All I can change is myself but if I do not live as a Christian then how can I influence anyone. So live as a Christian and pray that your influence will have a positive effect on those around you and so affect changes in society that lead all to be treated in accordance with the values of Christ. |
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| Rose of York | Thursday, 3. January 2013, 12:29 Post #7 |
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I agree with that, but there are atheists and agnostics who care about others. I care about others because I had the example and Christian teaching in the home from a very early age. |
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Keep the Faith! | |
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| Penfold | Thursday, 3. January 2013, 13:09 Post #8 |
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If an atheist or non Christian cares about others that is good but a person who does not care about others can not be a Christian. To be Christian is to be as Christ to others. A mistake so often made is that people think that it is enough to say they believe and to attend church and say their prayers. Why be a Christian? because you love Christ and wish to live as he lived if their is an other reason I have yet to find it. Some claim to be Christian because they seek eternal reward, well good luck to them for as a Christian one should seek no reward other than knowing one does the will of Christ. |
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| Gerard | Thursday, 3. January 2013, 13:36 Post #9 |
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I am in agreement with what Penfold is saying.
If this is not asking to change society then I dont know what it is asking for. It begins with the individual christian but also is collective. Why is the West so successful? I think because it is built on christian values and behaviours. The problems we see in society now are, to a large extent, because society is jettisoning christian values. Psalm 2 comes to mind
I think people forget the benefits of the values, seek freedom to indulge in selfish pleasures, and there are harmful consequencies that follow ... While I agree that all reform starts with the individual I also say that there is a collective responsibility and we have not been doing well in that area. For too long the catholic church clung on to governance models based on the Roman Empire. Better models have been developed in the West but the institutional church has not caught up (better models also exist in the church [e.g. in monasteries]). A start on updating was made at Vatican II but, unfortunately, is now in retreat. Vatican II started to empower the laity and restore them to their rightful role in the world (society) as priests, prophets, kings and evangelists. It restored the universal call to holiness. We need to return to, and encourage, that vision. Gerry |
| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| Rose of York | Thursday, 3. January 2013, 14:00 Post #10 |
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Christian belief can motivate individuals to use their talents to change society. An example is being active in politics, seeking election and promoting the improvement of social matters such as health provision, care for vulnerable people, fair treatment for workers who in return must be fair on employers, and decent housing for people unable to provide for themselves. |
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Keep the Faith! | |
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| Deleted User | Thursday, 3. January 2013, 20:26 Post #11 |
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I don't think society is jettisoning Christian values. There are one or two peripheral issues--gay marriage for example-- where some Christian are dismayed and a few far more serious ones --abortion , for instance --where there are real differences. But to take the UK as an example there is now real consensus on such fundamental Christian issues as overseas aid , support for the disabled , minimum wage, racial discrimnation and so on. Obviously the emphasis on aspects of these subjects ebbs and flows with changes of government and economic pressures but over the period since WW11 the trend towards a fairer, more just society is unmistakable and Christians should rejoice that their stance has heavily influenced this John |
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| Gerard | Thursday, 3. January 2013, 21:11 Post #12 |
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John, I agree with much of what you say but when I talk of jettisoning values I think of things like: Easy and now very common divorce. Easy and pervasive pornography (particularly on the internet). Greed (e.g. Banks but also pretty pervasive) Alcohol ad drugs (been in town on a Saturday night recently?) Violence is glorified in films and TV. Sunday becoming just another day for shopping and working. And many things that we would see as vices are now advertised on TV and aimed particularly at the young. Gambling comes to mind but easy sex and materialism is also pervasive. I think it is much more than periferal issues. Gerry Edited by Gerard, Thursday, 3. January 2013, 21:13.
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| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| Deleted User | Thursday, 3. January 2013, 23:55 Post #13 |
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Gerry , you make some good points, as always. I would not try to persuade anyone that everything is brilliant in today's society. On the other hand I don't think we should be in despair because the overarching trend is with us. Divorce is dificult for Catholics to accept but there are points for and against. The question to begin the thread was posed in Christian rather than Catholic terms and many other Christians are much more relaxed about the issue. Pornography is easy to obtain these days but has always been around. It has always used the easiest , most accessible mass media to get through to its audience. The fact that it uses the internet is not an example of society jettisoning Christian values--wider secular society worries about this problem as much as Christians do--witness recent discussions about tighter controls Greed , unfortunately, is another perennial. But here again society has risen in almost universal fury at the banks and others Similarly with alcohol and drugs. And encouragingly , the most recent research shows that alcohol abuse by young people is decreasing as is drug use. Violence being glorified is a real problem, I agree Sunday opening is a fact but like many Catholics I don't see this as a problem. Once I take my grandaughter back from 10 am Sunday Mass, I often pop into the local Tesco and just as often joke with fellow parishioners I meet in the aisle that the company should be paying the parish a dividend given all the custom they get for us after that service Gambling is not necessarily a vice. Like alcohol, it is ok in moderation. Easy sex is a lot more difficult than it sounds ( if my memeory serves me right!).And materialism is not a specifically Christian worry. I think we're winning though badly led John |
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| Derekap | Friday, 4. January 2013, 12:10 Post #14 |
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Gerard wrote: "Alcohol and drugs (been in town on a Saturday night recently?) Violence is glorified in films and TV." My father used to say that when he was younger police used to patrol in threes in certain streets of York. He was talking about the turn of the centuries 19th and 20th. It was mainly the effect of alchohol rather than drugs. I think I saw more daytime drunkeness when I was younger. In the 1930s people complained about the effect of films about cowboys, the US Cavalry and Red Indians shown during children's matinees on Saturdays. Before divorce husbands and wives didn't necessarily live perfect marital lives. I remember being surprised that "Catholic countries" had professional football matches on Sundays. I saw Christmas Day 1956 in Cologne; public transport was almost normal; crowds milling about the city centre. The big shops were not open but the Konditerei serving Kaffee and Küchen mit Schlage were doing a roaring trade! Christmas Day, like Sundays, is a Holyday of Obligation! I don't think sin is any more prevalent now than before - the means and methods have modernised of course. There is more publicity about sinful activities now. Because of suppression of news do we think child abuse never ocurred? Edited by Derekap, Friday, 4. January 2013, 12:26.
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| Derekap | |
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| Gerard | Friday, 4. January 2013, 12:55 Post #15 |
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Derek and John, There is truth in what you say. People always think the present is worse than the past. I could debate each point but let me take one - divorce. I said divorce had become normal. The effects are profound. I think the effects are capable of destroying society. Here are some statistics:
http://www.divorcerate.org/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6542031.stm Family breakdown is very bad for the children. They are distressed and disturbed, often severely. I have been surprised to find my students (19 years and upwards) going to pieces and droping out of their courses because their parents are divorcing. Children growing up in single parent households are disadvantaged emotionally, developmentally and financially. They are less prepared for marriage themselves and so this is a vicious downward spiral. When easier divorce came in it was argued that it was better for the children than having two parents who were not getting on. However, subsequent research has shown that the children actually do better with two parents not getting on than divorced parents (violence excepted - but then separation is better than divorce). Why be a Christian? Because Christ has better answers. Both for individuals and for society. Gerry |
| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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8:36 PM Jul 11