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Repentant Sinners
Topic Started: Sunday, 11. November 2012, 19:51 (673 Views)
Mairtin
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In another thread, Penfold said:
Quote:
 
Jesus condemned the actions of the tax collector, see the story of Zacchaeus, the prostitute, see the story of the woman at the well. He knew their sins and called them to repent, he did not condone their actions or pretend their sinful ways did not matter.

I have long been puzzled by these stories, particularly the Samaritan woman, because our Church puts so much emphasis on identifying sin and calling for repentance yet Jesus never mentions the woman's sins and, as far as I can see, says nothing to her about repenting.

In the case of Zaccheus, He went to the house before Zacchaeus changed his behaviour and although He did praise Zaccheus after his proclamation, He never actually referred to Zacchaeus having been a sinner or mentioned repentance.
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pat
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My understanding of the Samaritan woman at the well is that her sin was that she had been married before and was living "in sin" with her current man. The fact that she was at the well in the middle of the day on her own suggests that she was shunned by the other women, who would have all gone to the well together at break of day. Jesus doesn't specifically tell her to repent, but confronting her with her past challenges her and she is given the grace to go and tell her townsfolk about Him.
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Gerard

Was it a sin? Did she actually have a choice? Was the choice to live like that or to die of starvation? Do you know?

And on a different thread many months ago I argued that Zacheus may well have been a man of integrity. Only a man of integrity could afford to pledge to pay back four times over anyone and everyone he had ever cheated.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Gerard

But Jesus preached repentence. It is central to his message. These are from a single Gospel.

Matthew 4:17
From that time on Jesus began to preach, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near.”

Matthew 11:20
Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent.

Matthew 11:21
“Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

Matthew 12:41
The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now one greater than Jonah is here.

Matthew 21:32
For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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tomais

Why is every one picking on me????
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garfield

I think Zacchaeus had a bad conscience about what he was doing before he met Jesus, he knew he was a sinner and not worthy to meet Jesus which is why he was hiding up a tree not pushing himself to the front of the crowd
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Gerard

Luke 19
Jesus entered Jericho and was passing through. A man was there by the name of Zacchaeus; he was a chief tax collector and was wealthy. He wanted to see who Jesus was, but because he was short he could not see over the crowd. had a bad conscience about what he was doing before he met Jesus, he knew he was a sinner and not worthy to meet Jesus So he ran ahead and climbed hid in a sycamore-fig tree to see him, since Jesus was coming that way.

:rolleyes:
Edited by Gerard, Monday, 12. November 2012, 10:22.
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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garfield

he wanted to see Jesus but didn't want Jesus to see him, he hid in the tree, if he'd been entirely confident in his own worthiness I still think he would have pushed to the front.
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Gerard

Ahh well, Garfield, at least no one could accuse you of being a literalist.

Gerry
Edited by Gerard, Monday, 12. November 2012, 14:05.
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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garfield

perhaps I just know more pushy short people :grin:
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Gerard

Alternatively, a chief tax collector would have been safer up a tree than in the middle of a jewish crowd. Which still does not make him a sinner.

gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Penfold
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Quote:
 
The Accounting Historians Journal © 1986 The Academy of Accounting Historians
Abstract:
The Jews used bars and rings of gold and silver as money prior to using coins. Syrian, Roman, and Jewish coins were used during the time of Christ. The Roman Government imposed a tremendous tax burden upon its subjects. The people of Israel also had to pay a tax to the temple. Publicans, or tax collectors, were well known for their corruption. Thus, the Jews had utter contempt for publicans. Christ paid his share of taxes and taught that it was right to do so even under the corrupt system of the Romans.



And here is the text. It clearly speaks of Salvation coming to the house of Zacchaeus and of Jesus coming to Save the lost. Work the rest out for yourselves I am off for a break.

A little history lesson to aid with understanding the context, tax collectors were notorious for being corrupt.

Quote:
 
Luke 19:1-10
English Standard Version (ESV)
Jesus and Zacchaeus

19 He entered Jericho and was passing through. 2 And behold, there was a man named Zacchaeus. He was a chief tax collector and was rich. 3 And he was seeking to see who Jesus was, but on account of the crowd he could not, because he was small in stature. 4 So he ran on ahead and climbed up into a sycamore tree to see him, for he was about to pass that way. 5 And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up and said to him, “Zacchaeus, hurry and come down, for I must stay at your house today.” 6 So he hurried and came down and received him joyfully. 7 And when they saw it, they all grumbled, “He has gone in to be the guest of a man who is a sinner.” 8 And Zacchaeus stood and said to the Lord, “Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor. And if I have defrauded anyone of anything, I restore it fourfold.” 9 And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, since he also is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”


and for those of you who might need the Sunday School answer try this;

http://www.missionarlington.org/d/LOC09-43-Zacchaeus.pdf
Edited by Penfold, Monday, 12. November 2012, 19:22.
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Gerard

Guilt by association?

Zacheus did change - he gave half of his wealth away.

But did he give away the other half? If he was corrupt and his money was based upon corruption then if he gave away four times as much as he had cheated he would have nothing left. And offering to give away 4 times anything you have cheated still sounds to me like the sort of thing someone would say who was protesting their innocence.

So, Penfold, I agree that tax collectors had a bad reputation. But nothing in the story points conclusively to Zacheus being corrupt. And your insults and condescension do not improve your arguments.

Gerry
Edited by Gerard, Monday, 12. November 2012, 21:48.
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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OsullivanB

Penfold
 
A little history lesson to aid with understanding the context, tax collectors were notorious for being corrupt.
Do you have an ancient source for this oft-made but never substantiated claim?
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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Penfold
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Gerard
Monday, 12. November 2012, 19:50
Guilt by association?

Zacheus did change - he gave half of his wealth away.

But did he give away the other half? If he was corrupt and his money was based upon corruption then if he gave away four times as much as he had cheated he would have nothing left. And offering to give away 4 times anything you have cheated still sounds to me like the sort of thing someone would say who was protesting their innocence.

So, Penfold, I agree that tax collectors had a bad reputation. But nothing in the story points conclusively to Zacheus being corrupt. And your insults and condescension do not improve your arguments.

Gerry
Are you saying the Jesus was wasting his time with Zacchaeus for Zacchaeus was not lost?

The norm for restitution was well known and laid down in the scriptures so he was acting in the manner appropriate to a person admiring their guilt and offering to atone for their sin, his giving however in giving away half his wealth to the poor he is going a step further to demonstrate to Jesus that he is truly repentant


Quote:
 
If any man steal an ox or a sheep, and kill or sell it: he shall restore five oxen for one ox, and four sheep for one sheep. Exodus 22:1 Douay-Rheims Bible


And as for the Woman at the well she had been divorced five times, and Jesus was pretty clear that to have divorced and remarried once was committing adultery Matthew 5:32; Luke 16:18, so yes she was a sinner and knew it and in her conversation with Jesus accepted his acknowledgment of her sins and the forgiveness that he offered.


I really have no time for this, if the simple truth that Jesus called sinners to repentance and the examples given in the New Testament as evidence of this are to be challenged by people who claim to be Christians then I give up.
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