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Transubstantiation; At the heart of the mass and the sustenance of our faith.
Topic Started: Thursday, 8. November 2012, 11:20 (482 Views)
Penfold
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I trawled through the achieves and searched previous topics and was amazed to find only one topic which addressed Transubstantiation.

As a theological concept it is the belief that the body and blood of Christ is truly present in the Bread and Wine following the prayer of Consecration during the mass. When we receive holy communion we receive Jesus, body and blood. As Mrs Pogle observed in another thread, it is hard to believe that this is the case if one looks at the behaviour many of us display. Mrs Pogle makes a very important observation for Jesus said that
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By their fruits you shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?, Mt 7:16 Douay-Rheims Bible


How is it then that with the Eucharist at the heart of our worship and the primary sustainer of our faith we are not all living as saints?

The simple answer is, "Well how much worse would we be if we did not go to mass and receive communion," and in a sense this simple answer, perhaps simplistic, is not far off the mark either, for we do not know how bad we would be, though we may have suspicions.

If we are honest with ourselves we could perhaps make a reasonable assessment of the less pleasant side of our character and only we know how hard we struggle to ensure that that darker side is. The struggle not to allow it to dominate and the efforts we go through to try and live a good life.
The belief in Transubstantiation may not be the magic formulae that instantly transforms us into saints but what do we feel. What benefits are there, do they leave us hungry to receive the Lord and ensure that we come to mass not because we have to but because we need to in order to be fed. Have we perhaps lost sight of the true purpose of sharing in the Eucharist, have we forgotten that at its heart is this great banquet that should help to transform our lives and encourage us in our life in Christ?

I open this thread not so much to discuss whether or not Transubstantiation occurs, I am asking have we perhaps forgotten the joy and love of the Lord that it should fill us with. Why is this miracle in which we share when ever we come to mass apparently loosing its efficacy or is it just that we are such sinners that the effect is to transform us from being really horrible to tolerable when it should in fact transform us into being wonderfully loving, kind, compassionate and patient.

Transubstantiation is at the heart of our religious worship why do people who observe us not see the miracle. Perhaps this will be a fruitful focus of prayerful reflection for us during Advent in a few weeks time or perhaps we could address it now, either way it will be a largely personal journey of reflection and we ought to be careful not to judge each others contributions to harshly for we will be expressing inner doubts and fears rather than making statements of doctrine and faith. If no one else posts that will be fine all I ask is we each pause and reflect upon the questions asked. Thank you Mrs Pogle you have given me cause for thought.
Edited by Penfold, Thursday, 8. November 2012, 11:23.
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Mrs.Pogle
from the woods
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The simple answer is, "Well how much worse would we be if we did not go to mass and receive communion," and in a sense this simple answer, perhaps simplistic, is not far off the mark either, for we do not know how bad we would be, though we may have suspicions.


The problem I have with that from personal experience, is that in my current (Anglican) Church, where Catholics would say there wasn't ever the "real presence", I have received more love, care and fellowship in 6 months than I did in 6 years in my former Catholic Church. People have bent over backwards to be welcoming and loving, and in our recent time of bereavement have been so supportive. I felt lucky if more than one person even spoke to me after Mass previously. And I am not saying that in a Spirit of gloating, but rather sadness.
What I have encountered in my current Church is the real presence of Christ in the lives, hearts and love of my fellow Christians, and that is what I need.
Edited by Mrs.Pogle, Thursday, 8. November 2012, 12:54.
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Gerard

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I open this thread not so much to discuss whether or not Transubstantiation occurs, I am asking have we perhaps forgotten the joy and love of the Lord that it should fill us with. Why is this miracle in which we share when ever we come to mass apparently loosing its efficacy or is it just that we are such sinners that the effect is to transform us from being really horrible to tolerable when it should in fact transform us into being wonderfully loving, kind, compassionate and patient.


I offer a possibile answer: We are a church more focused on rules than spirituality, on dogma than on love.

Gerry
Edited by Gerard, Thursday, 8. November 2012, 13:51.
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Gerard

The Real Presence:

The catholic church teaches that in Mass there are four "real presences":

1. In the assembly, the people.
2. In the scriptures when they are read out.
3. In the priest who presides.
4. In the consecrated bread and wine. (is that five?)

Since at least two of those are found in the anglican church I cant see how any catholic would say there "wasnt ever the real presence" in the anglican church.

Catholic assemblies are well known for being less friendly than other denominations. In addition to my post above I also think the hierarchical and regimented nature of our denomination engenders a less open, less relaxed, less friendly atmosphere and culture. I know that this culture does attract some people who like the anonymity. Myself I think it is wrong. I have seen charitable explanations which say we are more focused and concerned with God than each other. I think there is some truth in that but it is not good enough. We are enjoined to love God and each other.

Another explanation is the size of parishes. They are too big. Really to integrate into a parish one needs to join established groups (e.g. SVP, mums and toddlers, rosary group, charismatic group, retired lunchers, youth, etc), or start one oneself. Becoming a reader/welcomer etc is also helpful.

I think one of the two or three things that keeps me in this dysfunctional catholic church is the real presence in the Eucharist. Jesus said it and I believe it. Another thing, bythe way, is that every other church is equally dysfunctional. :wink:

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Mrs.Pogle
from the woods
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Since at least two of those are found in the anglican church I cant see how any catholic would say there "wasnt ever the real presence" in the anglican church.

...believe me, there are some that do ;)

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I think one of the two or three things that keeps me in this dysfunctional catholic church is the real presence in the Eucharist.

Which I guess it why there was no longer enough to keep me "in".

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Another thing, bythe way, is that every other church is equally dysfunctional.

Absolutely agree on that one!

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Rose of York
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Penfold
Thursday, 8. November 2012, 11:20
The belief in Transubstantiation may not be the magic formulae that instantly transforms us into saints but what do we feel. What benefits are there, do they leave us hungry to receive the Lord and ensure that we come to mass not because we have to but because we need to in order to be fed. Have we perhaps lost sight of the true purpose of sharing in the Eucharist, have we forgotten that at its heart is this great banquet that should help to transform our lives and encourage us in our life in Christ?

The Eucharist is a communal celebration, but at every family gathering there are people who are treated with the utmost reverence, e.g. great grandparents. There are for each member one or two for whom they have a very special love.

At Mass we pray together, but I feel that after receiving Jesus, it is good to have a few minutes silence for individual communication between the recipient and the most special person present, Jesus, God the Son.

Penfold
Thursday, 8. November 2012, 11:20
I open this thread not so much to discuss whether or not Transubstantiation occurs, I am asking have we perhaps forgotten the joy and love of the Lord that it should fill us with. Why is this miracle in which we share when ever we come to mass apparently loosing its efficacy or is it just that we are such sinners that the effect is to transform us from being really horrible to tolerable when it should in fact transform us into being wonderfully loving, kind, compassionate and patient.

The sacrament cannot lose its efficacy, it is what it was at the last Supper. Throughout history and no doubt in every community where Mass was ever said there were sinners who were not transformed from " being really horrible to tolerable " when it should in face "transform us into being wonderfully loving, kind, compassionate and patient." When we have received Jesus we have to co-operate, use our free will, decide whether to be transformed.

Penfold
Thursday, 8. November 2012, 11:20
Transubstantiation is at the heart of our religious worship why do people who observe us not see the miracle.
Probably because we rarely speak of the miracle, outside parish circles.

Penfold
Thursday, 8. November 2012, 11:20
Perhaps this will be a fruitful focus of prayerful reflection for us during Advent in a few weeks time or perhaps we could address it now, either way it will be a largely personal journey of reflection

Reception of the Eucharist is very personal indeed. A few quiet minutes to reflect, at every Mass, is invaluable, a time when we can consider the sheer miracle of Jesus' presence, talk to and listen to him about our joys and sorrows, faults and failings and ask him to help us be better people.
Keep the Faith!

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Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
Mrs.Pogle
Thursday, 8. November 2012, 12:54
The problem I have with that from personal experience, is that in my current (Anglican) Church, where Catholics would say there wasn't ever the "real presence", I have received more love, care and fellowship in 6 months than I did in 6 years in my former Catholic Church...
I have a book of conversion stories. One of them, that of Lord Alfred Douglas (yes, him of Oscar Wilde fame!), ends thus:
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I refer to all this now simply because it brings out the supernatural element in my conversion. Of course, all conversions have their supernatural side but it is not often so obvious as it was in my case. Here was I strangely and suddenly converted, without emotion, without enthusiasm and almost reluctantly to Catholicism, and shortly afterwards hurled into a fiery furnace of affliction which lasted on and off for ten years. Thenceforward all my help and my consolation came from my religion, for I got no help and no sympathy from fellow Catholics. Quite the contrary! Would any less cruel experience have turned me into a real Catholic? I guess not. Q.E.D.
Edited by Clare, Thursday, 8. November 2012, 16:24.
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Gerard

I am also not so sure that transubstantiation does not happen in anglican (or even pentecostal) churches.

(sorry about the double negative)

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Angus Toanimo
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Mrs.Pogle
Thursday, 8. November 2012, 12:54
in my current (Anglican) Church, where Catholics would say there wasn't ever the "real presence", I have received more love, care and fellowship in 6 months than I did in 6 years in my former Catholic Church. People have bent over backwards to be welcoming and loving, and in our recent time of bereavement have been so supportive.
If I went to a non-Catholic Christian "Church" and they knew I am a Catholic, I'm pretty sure I'd be welcome with open arms as well. Heretics and schismatics care not one jot for the salvation of your soul.

All the devils and demons and the damned in Hell want you to roast with them - not one would advise you to stay away and do your utmost to get to Heaven.
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Rose of York
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Angus Toanimo
Thursday, 8. November 2012, 16:51
Mrs.Pogle
Thursday, 8. November 2012, 12:54
in my current (Anglican) Church, where Catholics would say there wasn't ever the "real presence", I have received more love, care and fellowship in 6 months than I did in 6 years in my former Catholic Church. People have bent over backwards to be welcoming and loving, and in our recent time of bereavement have been so supportive.
If I went to a non-Catholic Christian "Church" and they knew I am a Catholic, I'm pretty sure I'd be welcome with open arms as well. Heretics and schismatics care not one jot for the salvation of your soul.

All the devils and demons and the damned in Hell want you to roast with them - not one would advise you to stay away and do your utmost to get to Heaven.
Denominations vary. If you went to an Anglo Catholic church you would hear preaching based on Catholic doctrine. Have you never heard of the Wesley brothers, who preached salvation, and urged people to turn away from sin? Methodism has not changed in that respect. Some fringe churches preach that once we have accepted Jesus as our saviour, nothing we do will bar our entry in Heaven, those churches are preaching false doctrine, and they are the minority.

To get this

:topicbaack:

Anglo Catholics believe in transubstantiation. The difference between us and them is the disagreement about the validity of their Orders. They believe they have valid Masses, their congregations believe they are receving the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ, whole and entire.
Keep the Faith!

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Gerard

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Edited by Gerard, Thursday, 8. November 2012, 17:16.
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Penfold
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Folks, I deliberately chose the title of this thread to be Transubstantiation not Eucharist or real presence. It it is not the celebration of thanksgiving, Eucharist or the presence of the Lord at that celebration, Real Presence, that is the topic so what the Anglicans or others do at their worship, while interesting, is not relevant to this thread. I want us to meditate, contemplate and if moved talk about what it means for us to receive the actual body and blood of Jesus, Transubstantiation, and if we truly believe we receive the Body and Blood of Christ why is it that we are not better witnesses to His presence in our lives, not the lives of others but mine and yours. If an Anglican believes that what happens in the service they attend is transubstantiation then that is their belief but it is not the teaching of their church, however what Anglicans or others believe is not the point of this thread, I am curious as to why we as Roman Catholics, profess a belief in Transubstantiation and yet rarely talk about the joy of receiving the Body and Blood of Christ.
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Rose of York
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Penfold, do you think it would be best if this topic is closed, giving you an opportunity to begin afresh?
Keep the Faith!

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Gerard

I do not see the "problem" as different from the wider problem of

why do the baptised not behave better or more holy?
why do those who read the Bible not behave better or more holy?
why do those who pray not behave better or more holy?

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
Penfold
Thursday, 8. November 2012, 17:20
... I want us to meditate, contemplate and if moved talk about what it means for us to receive the actual body and blood of Jesus, Transubstantiation, and if we truly believe we receive the Body and Blood of Christ why is it that we are not better witnesses to His presence in our lives, not the lives of others but mine and yours....
Because a lot of Catholics do not believe it, because they have not been seriously taught it for the last few decades. And they have not been taught about mortal sin, or the need for Confession. So they communicate week after week while denying that there is any sin in things they enjoy, and that lots of nice people do, and so can't be bad, etc.
S.A.G.

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