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New head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith; Archbishop Gerhard Ludwig Müller
Topic Started: Wednesday, 19. September 2012, 01:07 (809 Views)
Gerard

Penfold
Sunday, 23. September 2012, 07:14
Gerard
Friday, 21. September 2012, 09:09
Quote:
 
If some chose not to be reconciled then their fate is foretold in scripture, and that goes for both extremes.


I very much doubt that.

Gerry
What do you doubt?
An interesting question Penfold. Since the statement I am doubting is not clear either.

However, here was my thinking:

1. If you meant that scripture said that the fate of those who refuse to be reconciled with the Vatican is to go to hell - then I doubt that and am happy to debate that point.

2. If you meant anything else I would doubt that as well since I doubt that everyone not reconciled will have the same fate. Unless it is that they all go to heaven - which, as a quasi-universalist, I rather hope will be the case.

Gerry
Edited by Gerard, Sunday, 23. September 2012, 13:57.
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Penfold
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We are all held to account for our actions if we are unfaithful to the promises we made at baptism and are untrue to the creed we profess at Mass and are then we are as unfruitful trees. Whether you like it or not the Pope and the hierarchy are the heirs to the Apostles and so the guardians of the Church founded by Christ. The One True Holy and Apostolic Church.
Quote:
 
CCC
Article 9

"I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH"

748 "Christ is the light of humanity; and it is, accordingly, the heart-felt desire of this sacred Council, being gathered together in the Holy Spirit, that, by proclaiming his Gospel to every creature, it may bring to all men that light of Christ which shines out visibly from the Church."135 These words open the Second Vatican Council's Dogmatic Constitution on the Church. By choosing this starting point, the Council demonstrates that the article of faith about the Church depends entirely on the articles concerning Christ Jesus. the Church has no other light than Christ's; according to a favorite image of the Church Fathers, the Church is like the moon, all its light reflected from the sun.

749 The article concerning the Church also depends entirely on the article about the Holy Spirit, which immediately precedes it. "Indeed, having shown that the Spirit is the source and giver of all holiness, we now confess that it is he who has endowed the Church with holiness."136 The Church is, in a phrase used by the Fathers, the place "where the Spirit flourishes."137

750 To believe that the Church is "holy" and "catholic," and that she is "one" and "apostolic" (as the Nicene Creed adds), is inseparable from belief in God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. In the Apostles' Creed we profess "one Holy Church" (Credo . . . Ecclesiam), and not to believe in the Church, so as not to confuse God with his works and to attribute clearly to God's goodness all the gifts he has bestowed on his Church.138

It is very simple Gerry, its called loyalty. Loyalty is more than just lip service and empty words, that is what the scribes and Pharisees of Jesus's day were guilty of, it is about embracing the teachings of Christ and living by them, and the person who is entrusted with interpreting the words of Christ in our modern world is the successor of Peter. If he calls for a reconciliation and invites those at either extreme to come closer to the centre then that is a call that should be heeded. This is not a matter for debate, either you accept the authority of Peter or you do not. However the remarks I made left the matter of judgement were it belongs, with God for it is by the words of Jesus is the scriptures that we are reminded that those who do not bear good fruit will be pruned or pulled up and burned. Jesus words also made it clear that it is by our fruits that we shall be judged, so the fate of those who are not reconciled with the teachings of Christ as interpreted by the Present Pope will be held to account in accordance with the scriptures. If you disagree with this by what would you have them judged, the whims of man, the "Way of Gerry" personally I prefer the "Way of Christ" as given in Scripture.
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Rose of York
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Angus Toanimo
Sunday, 23. September 2012, 11:11
With a progressive like Mueller at the helm of the CDF, reconciliation between the SSPX and the Vatican will be an impossibility. If the Holy Father truly desires the reconciliation of the SSPX, this appointment is surely baffling and only serves to reinforce the belief within some Trad circles that the Holy Father is a wolf in sheep's clothing.
Not a wolf, more like a shepherd. A good shepherd carefully selects and trains a sheepdog, whose role will be to make every possible effort to round the strays and bring them back to the fold.
Keep the Faith!

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Gerard

Penfold,

So what you are saying then is, that you and I and they have no idea what fate will be of those who refuse to be reconcield.

Or perhaps you are saying that their fate will not be judged by whether they reconcile or not but by their fruits. In which case we would be in agreement.

Then there is always the small matter of loyalty to one's concience. Never a popular concept with those in power.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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OsullivanB

If it's canine analogies we're on, perhaps we should be thinking about foxes.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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OsullivanB

Gerard
Sunday, 23. September 2012, 15:24
Penfold,

So what you are saying then is, that you and I and they have no idea what fate will be of those who refuse to be reconcield.

Or perhaps you are saying that their fate will not be judged by whether they reconcile or not but by their fruits. In which case we would be in agreement.

Then there is always the small matter of loyalty to one's concience. Never a popular concept with those in power.

Gerry
I love the way that people who defend the right of conscientious behaviour so often get indignant when the behaviour leads to entirely foreseeable and often sought adverse consequences.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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Penfold
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Gerard
Sunday, 23. September 2012, 15:24
Then there is always the small matter of loyalty to one's concience. Never a popular concept with those in power.

Gerry
An informed conscience is no threat or problem to people in authority, what is a problem is ignorance. People who mould their conscience to suit their own personal interpretation of the world and will not be guided by the teachings of the Church. The Church Gerry not your own personal visions and ideas. If in good conscience on chooses to act in a certain way then you will in the end be judged by the fruits of that action, not by the church but by the one who founded it. The fate of those who go against the teachings of Christ is that they will be cut off from the church, the fate of those who offend Christ will also be cut off from him, as foretold in scripture, it is possible to offend Christ and remain in the Church it is also possible to offend the Church and remain faithful to Christ.
What I am saying is very simple, their are those who have set themselves up as being of greater authority than the Pope and his council and in the end they will be judged as Christ says we shall all be judged. Scripture tells us we will be judged by our fruits.

Quote:
 
St. Thomas More, 'for whom conscience was not at all an expression of subjective stubbornness or obstinate heroism. He
numbered himself, in fact, among those faint-hearted martyrs who only after faltering and much
questioning succeed in mustering up obedience to the truth, which must stand higher than any
human tribunal or any type of personal taste'. (Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, Conscience and Truth, 1991)


An informed conscience is no threat it is an uninformed, immature conscience that causes headaches.
If our loyalty to our conscience is our primary loyalty then to what is our conscience loyal?
Edited by Penfold, Sunday, 23. September 2012, 16:30.
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draig
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Angus Toanimo
Sunday, 23. September 2012, 11:11
With a progressive like Mueller at the helm of the CDF, reconciliation between the SSPX and the Vatican will be an impossibility. If the Holy Father truly desires the reconciliation of the SSPX, this appointment is surely baffling and only serves to reinforce the belief within some Trad circles that the Holy Father is a wolf in sheep's clothing.
From what I have seen there can be no reconciliation between the SSPX and The Church as no head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith can ever agree that SSPX views about V2 are correct. I think there is more chance of reconciliation with the church of england because the differences there do not relate to the validity of the papacy.
Gripe. Moan. Snipe. Ignore any inconvenient truth. Don't provide specific data. Don't, whatever you do, provide links to hard evidence. The Traditional Way To Maintain A Discussion.
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Mairtin
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Angus Toanimo
Sunday, 23. September 2012, 11:11
... this appointment is surely baffling and only serves to reinforce the belief within some Trad circles that the Holy Father is a wolf in sheep's clothing.
Thank you, Angus, for once again reminding us of the a la carte nature of those who like to proclaim theselves as Traditionalist but carefully pick which aspects of traditional practice they actually wish to adhere to.
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CARLO
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Mairtin
Sunday, 23. September 2012, 18:07
Angus Toanimo
Sunday, 23. September 2012, 11:11
... this appointment is surely baffling and only serves to reinforce the belief within some Trad circles that the Holy Father is a wolf in sheep's clothing.
Thank you, Angus, for once again reminding us of the a la carte nature of those who like to proclaim theselves as Traditionalist but carefully pick which aspects of traditional practice they actually wish to adhere to.
I must say that 'a la carte' is more usually associated with the 'modern' Catholic than the traditionalist!!!

:pl:

Miserere nobis
Have mercy on us

CARLO

:hereticrepellent:
Judica me Deus
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Mairtin
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CARLO
Sunday, 23. September 2012, 18:10
Mairtin
Sunday, 23. September 2012, 18:07
Angus Toanimo
Sunday, 23. September 2012, 11:11
... this appointment is surely baffling and only serves to reinforce the belief within some Trad circles that the Holy Father is a wolf in sheep's clothing.
Thank you, Angus, for once again reminding us of the a la carte nature of those who like to proclaim theselves as Traditionalist but carefully pick which aspects of traditional practice they actually wish to adhere to.
I must say that 'a la carte' is more usually associated with the 'modern' Catholic than the traditionalist!!!
It seems the opposite to me, Carlo - the SSPX, for example, blatantly disobey the Pope and insist that they are better qualified to determine Church teaching than the Pope and his Bishops assembled in formal Council. They are also the ones who most publicly disparage the Pope e.g. Angus's depiction of the Pope as a wolf in sheep's clothing (and I have seen much worse on Trad forums) which prompted my comment.
Edited by Mairtin, Sunday, 23. September 2012, 19:15.
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CARLO
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Though it may seem the opposite to you Mairtin I believe it is not so.

Pax

CARLO

:hereticrepellent:
Judica me Deus
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Penfold
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Personally I usually stick to the less expensive but satisfying Table d'hôte, though when I can afford it the A la Carte is acceptable. what I have little time for is the Burger and Fries eating on the hoof though I have no problem with trad fish and chips in newspaper. In short all manner of tastes provided it is food in a recognisable form, which I confess I have yet to find in a burger joint.
(No firms named to avoid lawsuits but burgers in kilts are the worst)
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Angus Toanimo
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Penfold
Sunday, 23. September 2012, 21:12
(No firms named to avoid lawsuits but burgers in kilts are the worst)
:rofl:
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Angus Toanimo
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Mairtin
Sunday, 23. September 2012, 18:07
Angus Toanimo
Sunday, 23. September 2012, 11:11
... this appointment is surely baffling and only serves to reinforce the belief within some Trad circles that the Holy Father is a wolf in sheep's clothing.
Thank you, Angus, for once again reminding us of the a la carte nature of those who like to proclaim theselves as Traditionalist but carefully pick which aspects of traditional practice they actually wish to adhere to.
People in glass houses, Mairtin, shouldn't throw stones. Didn't anyone teach you that?

;)
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