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By Faith Alone; Off shoot of discussion on readings for 24th Sunday
Topic Started: Wednesday, 12. September 2012, 10:29 (335 Views)
James
James
Differend kinds of faith .

Well yes and no Gerry.
Does faith as trust go hand in hand with good works.?

I think the question now is.
"What inspires people to do good works basically "

It is not confined to a religious faith only.
It is not even confined to a civilisation .
Remote villagers cut off can show hospitality good will to strangers.
So one can still argue that good works do not stem from faith alone (trust or acceptance)i
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Gerard

Yes James, then we get into concepts like:

"the Anonymous Christian"
"The Invisible Church"
"invincible ignorance" and "implicit will"
"Baptism of desire"
"Baptism of blood"
etc etc.

I thought I received some insight into this once when I was thinking about a chap I knew who was aggressively ant-religion but whos behaviour was dedicated to the truth in all its aspects. He spoke truth to power and suffered for it. Now this chap obviously loved the truth. And the truth is Jesus. So this chap loved and followed Jesus. He just didnt know it.

Gerry

"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Gerard

Quote:
 
I think the question now is.
"What inspires people to do good works basically "


Thought I would answer that question specifically:

Grace.

See catechism exerpts above ;)

Gerry

"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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James
James
I was thinking more along the lines of genesis.
Created in the image of God.
An attribute inbuilt at creation.
It is natural to do good - it is not natural to do evilI
inherint in all mankind.

"We do good works because it is inbuilt as an attribute at creation" - type of reasoning.
But it must be motivated or exercised and I accept that a religious faith as such is a good motivater.
The faith acts as agent in practising an inbuilt attribute.
Edited by James, Thursday, 13. September 2012, 14:25.
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Gerard

Quote:
 
It is natural to do good - it is not natural to do evilI
inherint in all mankind.


It is not natural to do evil? Adam and Eve chose evil, and we have been doing so ever since. So while I agree there is a God given (grace) inbuilt desire to do good there is also the tendency to do evil. Otherwise we would not need a Saviour.

The just man sins seven times a day ...

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Penfold
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Gerard
Thursday, 13. September 2012, 09:52
As I understand catholic teaching it is possible to be saved by faith without good works. Specifically the death bed repentance and the example of one of the two theives crucified alongside Jesus.

It does all hinge on the word "faith" as many posters above have said. James, in his epistle, is clearly talking about two different kinds of faith. One whose meaning is more like belief and one whose meaning is more like trust (or committment - Mairtins word). I might see the faith that saves as faith that chooses Christ, chooses to be on the side of Christ, accept Christ's leadership and protection. Fight on Christs side.

That kind of committment is possible at deaths door when no further "works" are possible.

Gerry

Quote:
 
When in weakness our will takes us down a wrong path the Power of the Holy Spirit will save us as long as we willingly resubmit ourselves to the Divine Mercy which is God's Grace.


This resubmission or submission can occur in a deathbed confession of faith. The act of penitence being itself a good work.

In essence what is being said by Jesus as conveyed by St James and the teaching of the Church is that we are not to regard Baptism as a ticket to heaven. Nor as, you correctly point out Gerry, is the absence of Baptism to be considered an obstacle to entry into heaven. Their are ways to live a good life without being baptised as a Christian and these are covered by the means Gerry refers to.
The baptism of Desire is one that many reject but it has always formed part of Church teaching. The adage, "There is no salvation outside the Church" was for a long time incorrectly understood to mean that unless you were a baptised Catholic one could not receive eternal life. Thankfully we now recognise that mistake and accept a common Christian Baptism so that though some will not accept all the Sacraments or the full teaching and structure of the Catholic Church they are still Christian. We also now acknowledge that those who die with out baptism can still be saved, as mentioned above, but perhaps the biggest perceived change is the teaching on Limbo. In brief limbo was the answer to the unknown it was in a sense the X Factor. The church was unclear as to what happened to the Unoptimised infant and St Augustine simplified the problem by saying that they might go into Limbo pending the final Judgement, limbo being the name given to describe the state all people were in prior to the Salvation won for all by Christ.
Faith is Belief in something because we trust the person telling us. It is not a blind belief it is a belief based upon an understanding and in the case of Christianity it is an understanding that if we believe in God as revealed to us by Christ through the actions of the Holy Spirit, we are expected to live by that teaching. In other words it is not enough to say, "I believe" if we truly believe in God then we must live as Jesus showed us, and to do this we must be open to the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Every thought, word and deed should reflect the love we have for God and in that love our faith is revealed.
It is incorrect to suggest that a faith can exist separately from the good works that are its fruit, even if the only fruit is a deathbed confession. Christian Faith is a living testament to the Way of Christ not an academic acknowledgment of some facts in a book. Baptism is a commitment to that way of life not simply an initiation ceremony whereby a person, or in the case of parents, an infant is publicly seen to be registered as belonging to a club.
Parents who bring a child for baptism must be able to satisfy the priest that there is a founded hope that the child will be brought up in the practice of the faith. If they can not satisfy him then he is duty bound to defer the baptism until that assurance can be given. Grand-parents, unless the legal guardian of the child, can not make the pledge if the parents are unable or unwilling to raise the child in the practice of the faith.
Faith alone is not enough, there is a requirement to reveal ones faith through the manner in which one lives. This requirement is revealed in the word of Christ and in the teaching of the church.
The Christian Faith is not just a statement of belief it is a commitment in trust Christ by following him in the way we live. The way we live should reveal our commitment to Christ, the outward expression of that commitment is Good Works. However our own good works are of no avail if Christ is not present or the Holy Spirit has not enabled them through the inspiration we receive in the Grace of God.
In the context of the reformation and the Medieval feuds between the Catholic and Protestant, which persist to this day, what the reformers were correctly saying was you can not buy Justification. It can not be bought by trading in endungeoned indulgences or trading "Good Deeds" Nothing we do will add to the Justification won for us by Christ but we can refuse the gift or by are our obstinacy transgress so as to forfeit its efficacy.
"You can take a horse to water but you can not make them drink." God offers all faith but not all embrace it.
Edited by Penfold, Thursday, 13. September 2012, 19:39.
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James
James
A very fitting summary.
Thank you Penfold

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Derekap
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I agree with James!
Derekap
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