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By Faith Alone; Off shoot of discussion on readings for 24th Sunday
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Topic Started: Wednesday, 12. September 2012, 10:29 (334 Views)
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Penfold
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Wednesday, 12. September 2012, 10:29
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I am opening this thread as an offshoot of the thread on the Sunday Readings so as to separate the epistle, which is not directly linked to the Gospel and Old Testament reading (for the epistle follows a different cycle). I feel that the topic touched on in the epistle could form a discussion in its own right and so to avoid confusion have opened a separate thread.
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SECOND READING St James 2:14-18
Take the case, my brothers, of someone who has never done a single good act but claims that he has faith. Will that faith save him? If one of the brothers or one of the sisters is in need of clothes and has not enough food to live on, and one of you says to them, 'I wish you well; keep yourself warm and eat plenty,' without giving them these bare necessities of life, then what good is that? Faith is like that: if good works do not go with it, it is quite dead. This is the way to talk to people of that kind: 'You say you have faith and 1 have good deeds; 1 will prove to you that I have faith by showing you my good deeds - now you prove to me that you have faith without any good deeds to show.'
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We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone. Martin Luther
the Sola fide argument is at the heart of the differences between Catholicism and Protestantism. I have not time to explore this thread or discussion further at the moment but look forward to hearing input form others.
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James
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Wednesday, 12. September 2012, 12:42
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James
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Basic stuff first please because I need to start there. What is faith ? What are good works? Are they interrelated in any way ?
Take faith as a belief in life after death - then it is not related to good works as I see it. No more than an non-belief in life after death is related to good works. One is faith in a "fact" and the other is also faith in a "fact".
Christ said there is life after death and I accept / do not accept without seeing it. Maps tell me Wick, is in the north of Scotland and I accept / do not accept without seeing the place. Both on faith or non faith.
Neither related to good works.
Good works can be attributed to both without reference to facts.
Edited by James, Wednesday, 12. September 2012, 12:53.
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Rose of York
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Wednesday, 12. September 2012, 15:26
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- Penfold
- Wednesday, 12. September 2012, 10:29
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SECOND READING St James 2:14-18
Take the case, my brothers, of someone who has never done a single good act but claims that he has faith. Will that faith save him? If one of the brothers or one of the sisters is in need of clothes and has not enough food to live on, and one of you says to them, 'I wish you well; keep yourself warm and eat plenty,' without giving them these bare necessities of life, then what good is that? Faith is like that: if good works do not go with it, it is quite dead. This is the way to talk to people of that kind: 'You say you have faith and 1 have good deeds; 1 will prove to you that I have faith by showing you my good deeds - now you prove to me that you have faith without any good deeds to show.'
It stands to reason that God the Son, who had compassion for all, would require us to follow his example. After all he did say the Second greatest commandment is that we love our neighbour. Saying to a suffering person in obvious need of any form of help. "I do feel for you, I will say a prayer for you" is not total obedience of that Commandment. If we do not put love of neighbour into practise we risk our souls.
The truth stares us in the face, in St Matthew's Gospel, Chapter 25.
http://www.catholic.org/bible/book.php?id=47
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1 'Then the kingdom of Heaven will be like this: Ten wedding attendants took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom.
2 Five of them were foolish and five were sensible:
3 the foolish ones, though they took their lamps, took no oil with them,
4 whereas the sensible ones took flasks of oil as well as their lamps.
5 The bridegroom was late, and they all grew drowsy and fell asleep.
6 But at midnight there was a cry, "Look! The bridegroom! Go out and meet him."
7 Then all those wedding attendants woke up and trimmed their lamps,
8 and the foolish ones said to the sensible ones, "Give us some of your oil: our lamps are going out."
9 But they replied, "There may not be enough for us and for you; you had better go to those who sell it and buy some for yourselves."
10 They had gone off to buy it when the bridegroom arrived. Those who were ready went in with him to the wedding hall and the door was closed.
11 The other attendants arrived later. "Lord, Lord," they said, "open the door for us."
12 But he replied, "In truth I tell you, I do not know you."
13 So stay awake, because you do not know either the day or the hour.
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14 'It is like a man about to go abroad who summoned his servants and entrusted his property to them.
15 To one he gave five talents, to another two, to a third one, each in proportion to his ability. Then he set out on his journey.
16 The man who had received the five talents promptly went and traded with them and made five more.
17 The man who had received two made two more in the same way.
18 But the man who had received one went off and dug a hole in the ground and hid his master's money.
19 Now a long time afterwards, the master of those servants came back and went through his accounts with them.
20 The man who had received the five talents came forward bringing five more. "Sir," he said, "you entrusted me with five talents; here are five more that I have made."
21 His master said to him, "Well done, good and trustworthy servant; you have shown you are trustworthy in small things; I will trust you with greater; come and join in your master's happiness."
22 Next the man with the two talents came forward. "Sir," he said, "you entrusted me with two talents; here are two more that I have made."
23 His master said to him, "Well done, good and trustworthy servant; you have shown you are trustworthy in small things; I will trust you with greater; come and join in your master's happiness."
24 Last came forward the man who had the single talent. "Sir," said he, "I had heard you were a hard man, reaping where you had not sown and gathering where you had not scattered;
25 so I was afraid, and I went off and hid your talent in the ground. Here it is; it was yours, you have it back."
26 But his master answered him, "You wicked and lazy servant! So you knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered?
27 Well then, you should have deposited my money with the bankers, and on my return I would have got my money back with interest.
28 So now, take the talent from him and give it to the man who has the ten talents.
29 For to everyone who has will be given more, and he will have more than enough; but anyone who has not, will be deprived even of what he has.
30 As for this good-for-nothing servant, throw him into the darkness outside, where there will be weeping and grinding of teeth."
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31 'When the Son of man comes in his glory, escorted by all the angels, then he will take his seat on his throne of glory.
32 All nations will be assembled before him and he will separate people one from another as the shepherd separates sheep from goats.
33 He will place the sheep on his right hand and the goats on his left.
34 Then the King will say to those on his right hand, "Come, you whom my Father has blessed, take as your heritage the kingdom prepared for you since the foundation of the world.
35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you made me welcome,
36 lacking clothes and you clothed me, sick and you visited me, in prison and you came to see me."
37 Then the upright will say to him in reply, "Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
38 When did we see you a stranger and make you welcome, lacking clothes and clothe you?
39 When did we find you sick or in prison and go to see you?"
40 And the King will answer, "In truth I tell you, in so far as you did this to one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did it to me."
41 Then he will say to those on his left hand, "Go away from me, with your curse upon you, to the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42 For I was hungry and you never gave me food, I was thirsty and you never gave me anything to drink,
43 I was a stranger and you never made me welcome, lacking clothes and you never clothed me, sick and in prison and you never visited me."
44 Then it will be their turn to ask, "Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty, a stranger or lacking clothes, sick or in prison, and did not come to your help?"
45 Then he will answer, "In truth I tell you, in so far as you neglected to do this to one of the least of these, you neglected to do it to me."
46 And they will go away to eternal punishment, and the upright to eternal life.'
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Keep the Faith!
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Rose of York
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Wednesday, 12. September 2012, 15:28
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- Penfold
- Wednesday, 12. September 2012, 10:29
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We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone. Martin Luther
the Sola fide argument is at the heart of the differences between Catholicism and Protestantism. I have not time to explore this thread or discussion further at the moment but look forward to hearing input form others. Believing it makes no difference to our salvation whether we have or have not done good works, makes for a cushy religion. Jesus suffered for us, why should we go through life not giving tuppence for God's other children?
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Keep the Faith!
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James
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Wednesday, 12. September 2012, 15:45
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James
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But surely the parable is about the use of talents - faith does not enter into it in the sense of faith alone (topic heading) Martha busied herself and was admonished for using her talents. There may be a reason but nontheless she was not given praise for her effort as in the parable.
I think we may get bogged down with definitions and argument . The basic difference I have with James here is that I think the wrong word is used. and can be misleading. Faith and Good works are symptoms not causes.
The answer is in "Love" "Love me as I have loved you" Then everything else falls naturally into place for me. I read again using the word "love" instead of "faith" and it all makes sense to me
Follow a sympton alone (faith alone)and then I get confused
Edited by James, Wednesday, 12. September 2012, 15:49.
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Rose of York
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Wednesday, 12. September 2012, 16:29
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- James
- Wednesday, 12. September 2012, 15:45
But surely the parable is about the use of talents - faith does not enter into it in the sense of faith alone (topic heading) The third of the quoted parables is about good works.
Edited by Rose of York, Wednesday, 12. September 2012, 16:29.
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Keep the Faith!
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Gerard
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Wednesday, 12. September 2012, 16:58
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When you get behind the words to what is meant by the words - I cannot find a hair's breadth between Catholics and Protestants on this issue.
We are not saved by any good works we do. We are saved by grace through faith:
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2007 With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator.
2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man's free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man's merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.
2009 Filial adoption, in making us partakers by grace in the divine nature, can bestow true merit on us as a result of God's gratuitous justice. This is our right by grace, the full right of love, making us "co-heirs" with Christ and worthy of obtaining "the promised inheritance of eternal life."60 The merits of our good works are gifts of the divine goodness.61 "Grace has gone before us; now we are given what is due. . . . Our merits are God's gifts."62
2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God's wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.
2011 The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. The saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace.
Gerry
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"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Penfold
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Wednesday, 12. September 2012, 21:53
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CCC III. Merit
You are glorified in the assembly of your Holy Ones, for in crowning their merits you are crowning your own gifts.59 (59 Roman Missal, Prefatio I de sanctis; Qui in Sanctorum concilio celebraris, et eorum coronando merita tua dona coronas, citing the "Doctor of grace," St. Augustine, En. in Ps. 102, 7: PL 37, 1321-1322.)
2006 The term "merit" refers in general to the recompense owed by a community or a society for the action of one of its members, experienced either as beneficial or harmful, deserving reward or punishment. Merit is relative to the virtue of justice, in conformity with the principle of equality which governs it.
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2011 The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. the saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace.
After earth's exile, I hope to go and enjoy you in the fatherland, but I do not want to lay up merits for heaven. I want to work for your love alone.... In the evening of this life, I shall appear before you with empty hands, for I do not ask you, Lord, to count my works. All our justice is blemished in your eyes. I wish, then, to be clothed in your own justice and to receive from your love the eternal possession of yourself.63 (63 St. Therese of Lisieux, "Act of Offering" in Story of a Soul, tr. John Clarke (Washington Dc: ICS, 1981), 277.)
Just topping and tailing to clarify that Gerry's is quoting from the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) in case any visitors to the forum were wondering.
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Penfold
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Wednesday, 12. September 2012, 22:17
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CCC PART THREE: LIFE IN CHRIST SECTION ONE MAN'S VOCATION LIFE IN THE SPIRIT CHAPTER THREE GOD'S SALVATION: LAW AND GRACE Article 1 THE MORAL LAW 1973 Besides its precepts, the New Law also includes the evangelical counsels. the traditional distinction between God's commandments and the evangelical counsels is drawn in relation to charity, the perfection of Christian life. the precepts are intended to remove whatever is incompatible with charity. the aim of the counsels is to remove whatever might hinder the development of charity, even if it is not contrary to it.32
1974 The evangelical counsels manifest the living fullness of charity, which is never satisfied with not giving more. They attest its vitality and call forth our spiritual readiness. the perfection of the New Law consists essentially in the precepts of love of God and neighbor. the counsels point out the more direct ways, the readier means, and are to be practiced in keeping with the vocation of each:
(God) does not want each person to keep all the counsels, but only those appropriate to the diversity of persons, times, opportunities, and strengths, as charity requires; for it is charity, as queen of all virtues, all commandments, all counsels, and, in short, of all laws and all Christian actions that gives to all of them their rank, order, time, and value.33
Article 2
GRACE AND JUSTIFICATION
I. Justification 1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God's grace and man's freedom. On man's part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:
When God touches man's heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God's grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God's sight.42
(highlights by Penfold)
This reference from CCC suggests, as does the reading from St Paul James,(which we are reflecting upon) that man's cooperation is required, faith alone is not enough. We have by our own free will to cooperate in charity, ie good works. If our cooperation is irrelevant then either we are denied are freewill and become slaves to Gods command or charitable works will only occur if they are done without our involvement. Are we just God's Puppets?
Edited by Penfold, Thursday, 13. September 2012, 08:49.
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Ned
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Wednesday, 12. September 2012, 23:31
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- James
- Wednesday, 12. September 2012, 12:42
Basic stuff first please, because I need to start there.
Yes, James (edited).
And, of course, one really basic thing, that we have to look at, is the Righteousness of God.
God is Righteous. We most definitely are not righteous.
God's righteousness plus our unrighteousness equals disaster for us.
This is the problem that all the different theories of Justification seek to address - How can we become right in the eyes of God? How can God's righteous anger, at our unrighteousness, be appeased?
Regards
Ned
Edited by Ned, Thursday, 13. September 2012, 04:14.
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James
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Thursday, 13. September 2012, 01:02
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James
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Agree Ned,
But down to basics , I am not Paul. Sorry, he his in another league from me. Love you. James
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Ned
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Thursday, 13. September 2012, 01:35
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- James
- Thursday, 13. September 2012, 01:02
Agree Ned,
But down to basics , I am not Paul.
Oops, sorry, James.
But whatever one's ideas on the detailed process of us, hopefully, obtaining Righteousness or Justification, everyone agrees that it's all down to the Righteousness of God, the Righteousness of Christ.
You know what they tell preachers -
-- 1. Never underestimate the intelligence of your listeners.
-- 2. Never overestimate their knowledge of a subject.
We do have to set out the basics.
It's well above the 'basic' level but the "JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church" on the Vatican website - http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html may give a clearer background to this than the CCC does.
Regards
Ned
Edited by Ned, Thursday, 13. September 2012, 01:36.
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Mairtin
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Thursday, 13. September 2012, 07:33
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- Penfold
- Wednesday, 12. September 2012, 10:29
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We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone. Martin Luther
the Sola fide argument is at the heart of the differences between Catholicism and Protestantism. I've never understood this argument, to me it's not an either or - faith and good works automatically go together; if you eally are committed to your Christian beliefs then the good works will flow as naturally as breathing. That seems to me exactly what St. James meant by "I will prove to you that I have faith by showing you my good deeds ".
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Penfold
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Thursday, 13. September 2012, 08:39
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JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION
by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church ...
4.7 The Good Works of the Justified
37.We confess together that good works - a Christian life lived in faith, hope and love - follow justification and are its fruits. When the justified live in Christ and act in the grace they receive, they bring forth, in biblical terms, good fruit. Since Christians struggle against sin their entire lives, this consequence of justification is also for them an obligation they must fulfill. Thus both Jesus and the apostolic Scriptures admonish Christians to bring forth the works of love.
38.According to Catholic understanding, good works, made possible by grace and the working of the Holy Spirit, contribute to growth in grace, so that the righteousness that comes from God is preserved and communion with Christ is deepened. When Catholics affirm the "meritorious" character of good works, they wish to say that, according to the biblical witness, a reward in heaven is promised to these works. Their intention is to emphasize the responsibility of persons for their actions, not to contest the character of those works as gifts, or far less to deny that justification always remains the unmerited gift of grace.
However the simplest explanation lies in Scripture itself. In the passage from Epistle under consideration this Sunday:
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St James 2:14-18English Standard Version (©2001)
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?... This is the way to talk to people of that kind: 'You say you have faith and 1 have good deeds; 1 will prove to you that I have faith by showing you my good deeds - now you prove to me that you have faith without any good deeds to show.'
Or in the words of Jesus;- Quote:
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English Standard Version (©2001) Matthew 7:16-17 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 12:31-37 Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. “Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad, for the tree is known by its fruit.You brood of vipers! How can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.The good person out of his good treasure brings forth good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure brings forth evil. I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak,for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”
So while all we can not by our actions bring about our own redemption, for it is through God alone that we are Justified, we are responsible for our own actions and if by our own actions we deny our faith then we must seek reconciliation. If we seek forgiveness, then it is granted by virtue of the Justification already won for us by Christ, we need do nothing other than ask and we will be reconciled. The only sin that can not be forgiven is the denial of the power of the spirit. or in other words: By Faith alone we can't be saved but Faith alone can save us. To make sense of this one must ask, "What is faith?" to which I answer; faith is more than a statement of belief, it is a life lived in the way of that faith. A living testament to a living God is a life of good works. The nourishment and power required to live a life of faith is granted to us freely through the Grace of Justification won for us through the Saving Power of Christ and our continued cooperation with the Holy Spirit. We bring nothing that will contribute to our justification other than our own free will which we willingly surrender to the Will of God. The will of God is that we should live a good life in accordance with the Way shown to us by the life and teachings of Christ. When in weakness our will takes us down a wrong path the Power of the Holy Spirit will save us as long as we willingly resubmit ourselves to the Divine Mercy which is God's Grace. In saying this I believe I am in agreement with the teaching of the Catholic Church as given in the CCC.
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Gerard
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Thursday, 13. September 2012, 09:52
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As I understand catholic teaching it is possible to be saved by faith without good works. Specifically the death bed repentance and the example of one of the two theives crucified alongside Jesus.
It does all hinge on the word "faith" as many posters above have said. James, in his epistle, is clearly talking about two different kinds of faith. One whose meaning is more like belief and one whose meaning is more like trust (or committment - Mairtins word). I might see the faith that saves as faith that chooses Christ, chooses to be on the side of Christ, accept Christ's leadership and protection. Fight on Christs side.
That kind of committment is possible at deaths door when no further "works" are possible.
Gerry
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"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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