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| Gospel St.John 19:10-11; [the temporal order] | |
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| Topic Started: Tuesday, 11. September 2012, 16:53 (269 Views) | |
| PJD | Tuesday, 11. September 2012, 16:53 Post #1 |
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“ Pilate therefore said to him, ‘You will not speak to me? Do you not know that I have power to release you, and power to crucify you?’ Jesus answered him, ‘You would have no power over me unless it had been given you from above; therefore he who delivered me to you has the greater sin’. “ I find this passage in the NT interesting inasmuch as it is, to me, plain & simple – to the point. A priest told me today that this passage can only be found in the Gospel of St.John; which accordingly I have given above. It seems that there are two primary principles here i.e. free will and individual sin. From these there could arise several consequential-sections which could be considered. I list just four which spring immediately to mind – The temporal order & its validity. Disobedience as a concept & its validity. The passage of evil [often called nowadays ‘structures of sin’]. The validity of good-intention when such leads to evil acts/laws. Perhaps you would like to comment and/or make your own list. PJD |
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| James | Tuesday, 11. September 2012, 23:17 Post #2 |
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James
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I find the passage just an ordinary observatonal exchange PJD. The Christ is saying that the man Pilate would have no interest in him really, unless through his position, given to him from Rome. Otherwise he is just a roman citizen with no powers as such, except accidental. The second part is the more interesting. Who was it delivered Christ ? You see ,if salvation was the ultimte divine plan ,then God delivered HIM in order that we may have salvetion. All else is incidental. However, even then, I think the Christ is still speaking mundanely about the happenings since his arrest. Edited by James, Tuesday, 11. September 2012, 23:18.
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| PJD | Wednesday, 12. September 2012, 21:58 Post #3 |
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Perhaps you are right James; your reflections are interesting. PJD |
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| Penfold | Wednesday, 12. September 2012, 23:30 Post #4 |
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Pilots position is reminiscent of the centurion who asks Jesus to cure his servant. The centurion, based upon the evidence he had heard recognised that Jesus has authority, though he holds no rank. Pilot on the other hand tries using his high rank to intimidate Jesus. Jesus points out the reality that while Pilot hold high rank he has no authority. The authority of Pilot is mundane were as Jesus's authority is divine. As for Jesus is goading Pilot by accentuating the fact that since Pilot has no authority of his own and is merely acting on behalf and the High Priest, (Who delivered Jesus to Pilot). This could have been a good move, had Pilot been a man of courage, for it gave Pilot a reminder that he was indeed the Master not the Crowd or Herod and certainly not the High Priest. If Pilots claim were true that he was a man of power who could release Jesus if he chose to do so then Jesus by his reply saying to Pilot, "OK so if you are all powerful why do you not release me, I will tell you. You will not release me because you are afraid of the crowd (because if the crowed revolted Pilot would loose favour with the Emperor) you are afraid of the High Priests because they control the Crowd, be a man and show that you do have the power you claim and let me go." If we read on to the next verse it almost works for Pilot is now aware that Jesus has a natural authority and that what he is saying is correct. So he racks his brains and tries to find a way to let Jesus go. But the crowd, stirred up by the High priests lackeys, are very restless and Pilot is a coward so he washes his hands of the affair, Pilot had a choice, of his free will he acted and in so far as he could be held to account for his part in the Death of Jesus he will stand before God to be Judged, however in Jesus' acknowledgment that Pilot was acting under duress perhaps a clue that Pilot will be spared the fires of hell for if those who sent Jesus to him are guilty of a graver sin, surly they are also deserving of a greater punishment. There is however it is a misreading of the passage to suggest that the death of Jesus is inevitable, quite the reverse Pilot could have freed Jesus. Jesus came to save us but his death by crucifiction was not inevitable or predestined. Even on the cross there is a suggestion that Jesus was hoping that something would happen that would enable mankind to be saved by some other means, in Matthew's gospel we read.Mark 15:34 Matthew 27:46 See also Mark 15:34 Hebrews 5:7 However in the end Jesus accepted there was no other way having endured all that was humanly possible he surrendered.
His death could have been prevented if...well many things could have occurred if certain people had exorcised their free will differently; Judas might not have betrayed him; the chief priests might have been less vain and arrogant; Pilot might not have been a coward and a host of other little things could have been done a different way if people had truly listened and acted sooner on the Good News but they did not and many still do not, and we all have moments of deafness. |
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| PJD | Thursday, 13. September 2012, 22:16 Post #5 |
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"if certain people had exorcised their free will differently; " Yes Penfold! In fact I took that as my primary building block when originally posting. PJD |
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| James | Thursday, 13. September 2012, 22:21 Post #6 |
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James
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Hello Penfold. I am trying to think your post through as it is different from what I always understood as being taught to us. How does the resurrection fit in.? I am finding a stumbling block trying to work that one out in the light of your post.. James |
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| Penfold | Thursday, 13. September 2012, 23:34 Post #7 |
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Do not fret, the resurrection fits in because we did not follow the other path, we took the road most travelled, however the choice was there for a different road to be taken, (Due respects to Robert Frost). The resurrection was the result of the choices taken, what would have happened if people had listened and Jesus had not been crucified, we will never know. The point is that the life of Christ, as ours, is not the product of predestination though, and here is the conundrum/paradox, that God intended and still intends that man should be saved is predestined. However it remains the teaching of the church that who is saved and who is not is not predestined. How we are to be saved was not predetermined but the fact that we are will be offered salvation is part of the Divine plan. We can assume that if we repent of our sinfulness we will be forgiven and we can presume that if we are forgiven then we will be eligible to enter into the eternal reward. What we can not assume is that if we get ourselves into a fix through are own folly a giant hand of God will come and lift us out of the mess. In the end salvation is available to all but not all will accept it that is inevitable but there is nothing inevitable about who will or will not accept. Some people will see the error of their ways at the last moment while others who have lived good and blameless lives may in the end yield to a lifelong temptation and blow it at the final moment. We are responsible for our own lives, and the choices we make. We are not Gods ventriloquist dummies, but we are invited to sing to his tune and if we do the resulting harmony will be the harmony that God has always intended we should enjoy. Predeterminism and predestination could lead us in a fruitful and informative discussion in a thread dedicated to it but I can not be sure that I will be able to contribute very much more than this. But there are many others who might enjoy exploring the subject further. |
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| Rose of York | Thursday, 13. September 2012, 23:41 Post #8 |
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Administrator
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Thank you, Penfold. There is a lot of explanation in your post above, and it is easy to take in. I like it! |
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Keep the Faith! | |
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| James | Friday, 14. September 2012, 03:14 Post #9 |
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James
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Thanks but no thanks for me Penfold. Predetermination, predestination or just plain old accidental. Tried thinking about it all ,within the time continuum, and I always seem to conclude my existence as just plain old accidental. Not good for the spiritual - so I think better stick with undetermined supernatural activity outside the time continuum and leave it at that. Even the pholosophers can't seem to agree on that one !!. Thanks anyway. James Edited by James, Friday, 14. September 2012, 03:20.
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| PJD | Friday, 14. September 2012, 21:58 Post #10 |
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I suppose it is not strange so many different interpretations can be taken on any passage; even the most simple of ones. Yet when it comes to some others simple - like e.g. 'what God hath joined together' - no argument? PJD |
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| Gerard | Saturday, 15. September 2012, 09:24 Post #11 |
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It is a very short, very precise, instruction PJD. How could one interpret it differently? Gerry |
| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| paul | Saturday, 15. September 2012, 20:30 Post #12 |
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PJD would God have joined together two same sex individuals!!? |
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| OsullivanB | Saturday, 15. September 2012, 20:32 Post #13 |
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Would anyone mind simply sticking to the topic? There are threads for divorce and same sex relationships. |
| "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer | |
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| Rose of York | Saturday, 15. September 2012, 21:04 Post #14 |
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Administrator
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The principle I see is that God is master of all, therefore any person having authority over other people of anything in creation does not have absolute authority - they are answerable to God. That applies to Heads of State, Popes and persons to whom they delegate authority. Jesus, being God, must have meant no human has any power over him, unless he permits it. With his power he could have done whatever he chose to do to Pilate or even to Caesar. |
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Keep the Faith! | |
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| Penfold | Saturday, 15. September 2012, 21:08 Post #15 |
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Does God have the Power to force us to act against our own free will? |
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8:37 PM Jul 11