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Cardinal Martini speaks to Church from beyond the grave
Topic Started: Monday, 10. September 2012, 00:40 (583 Views)
CARLO
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Paul

I find the concept that theatre is for the illiterate and the ignorant rather odd!

Veritas
Truth



CARLO
:prayrosary:
Judica me Deus
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Anne-Marie

paul
Saturday, 15. September 2012, 20:39
Why is there so much emphasis and reliance on tradition in the church? We are not a forward thinking church, just stuck in a sort of time warp.
We are supposed to be followers of Christ - His 'family'.
Families are dynamic groups, sometimes taking unexpected, but positive and exciting, changes in direction... without losing a sense of purpose or of family.
Paul is quite right: Tradition is an utter irrelevance, and suggesting otherwise seems to be losing sight of what God, in His presence as Jesus, was all about.
Cardinal Martini was right - and like most folks who're right, he was ignored, because truth can feel mighty uncomfortable!
Anne-Marie
FIAT VOLUNTAS DEI
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Penfold
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Tradition is not irrelevant,

Quote:
 
To be ignorant of what occurred before you were born is to remain always a child. For what is the worth of human life, unless it is woven into the life of our ancestors by the records of history?
Cicero


Tradition, should not be seen as a static fixed point in time it is part of our living link to Christ, our heritage, our history. Why we do certain things in a certain way is often because of a lesson learnt in the past. The lessons should not be forgotten but all to often people only see part of the story and before checking why and following the link they dismiss the lesson as being "Out of Date". Tradition not because it preserves antiquated practises but because it is living record of who we are and why we are the way we are and if studied and accepted as such it can help us recognise the signs and portents of what is to come. Jesus did not just walk out of the desert one day and begin to preach, he came out of the scriptures as foretold, he was recognised by peter as the Messiah because Peter knew the scriptures and recognised Jesus as fitting the signs. how will we recognise Jesus in our midst if we have not the tradition of scripture.
Tradition helps us recognise the difference between the false and the true prophets, and their are many false prophets in the world to day. The problem is many of these false prophets would love us to discard our living link to Christ, they would thrive if we were to discard the centuries of wisdom that as our heritage, our tradition enables us to remain authentic to the original message of Christ. Those who say tradition is irrelevant are doomed to learn nothing and so repeat the mistakes of the past. Tradition is part of our culture our heritage it is part of who we are. Christianity is a family of the living and the dead,
Quote:
 
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end. the creed.

The church is not fassioned by the whim and fancy of today, but by the will of Christ, it is not designed for human interest but for God's purposes.
However I leave the last word on the subject to that great catholic convert, G K Chesterton KC*SG;

Quote:
 
Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to that arrogant oligarchy who merely happen to be walking around.
Gilbert K. Chesterton
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draig
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Anne-Marie
Thursday, 20. September 2012, 14:44
Paul is quite right: Tradition is an utter irrelevance, and suggesting otherwise seems to be losing sight of what God, in His presence as Jesus, was all about.
:disagree: I don't think tradition to be an utter irrelevance. Traditions can certainly be a help in times of trial. Some plan to follow when you can't think properly for fear or emotional turmoil. Old soldiers will tell you that regimental traditions are sometimes all that kept their units fighting when all seemed lost. The familiar can be very important in other ways - we always have brandy snaps and whipped cream when we come in from Midnight Mass at Christmas and it helps us move from the spiritual celebration to the secular celebrations. Without these it just wouldn't seem right and for drugget it is an important part of Christmas.

But, all traditions have a start somewhere (our brandy snap tradition was something we started at our first Christmas together), so demanding strict adherence to tradition would be irrelevent.
Gripe. Moan. Snipe. Ignore any inconvenient truth. Don't provide specific data. Don't, whatever you do, provide links to hard evidence. The Traditional Way To Maintain A Discussion.
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Rose of York
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There is more to Tradition than the style of music, vestments, buildings and choice of liturgical language.
Keep the Faith!

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Gerard

Style of music, vestments, buildings, and choice of liturgical language are not Tradition. None of them. They may well be tradition. Human artifacts that just dont matter. They are and should be optional. problems arise when some try to make them compulsory or claim that they are holy.

This is the nub, what tradition is important and what is not.

Quote:
 
For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. Mark 7:8


Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Penfold
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Gerard
Thursday, 20. September 2012, 16:48
This is the nub, what tradition is important and what is not.

Quote:
 
For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. Mark 7:8


Gerry
And who determines which traditions are the Commandments of God and which are the traditions of men, that is the nub. Tradition of pot washing is a rule of man that has relevance to this day, we call it hygiene. The point is not that we should not wash pots but that their are times when other things should take priority.
I have always had a problem with this particular passage because it appears to encourage unhygienic practice but that is why the impact is as great as it is. No matter how sensible the rules of man the Commandment of God takes precedence.
However I can't help thinking there is a certain irony that in a thread entitled, "... speaks to the church form beyond the grave" that tradition is regarded by some as irrelevant.
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draig
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Gerard
Thursday, 20. September 2012, 16:48
Style of music, vestments, buildings, and choice of liturgical language are not Tradition. None of them. They may well be tradition. Human artifacts that just dont matter. They are and should be optional. problems arise when some try to make them compulsory or claim that they are holy.

This is the nub, what tradition is important and what is not.

Quote:
 
For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. Mark 7:8


Gerry
I agree that in themselves these things are not Holy, but they are made Holy by being blessed and by their use in the worship of God. Whether they matter or not is an interesting question. You would you not be any less married if the priest conducted the service wearing boxer shorts and a string vest inside an empty warehouse, but it wouldn't seem to be a fitting setting for the sacred institute of marriage.

Quote:
 
problems arise when some try to make them compulsory

Spot on here Gerry, but it is more pleasing to have a nice table setting for a special celebration meal then to eat off paper plates using plastic cutlery. The food would still be the same though.
Gripe. Moan. Snipe. Ignore any inconvenient truth. Don't provide specific data. Don't, whatever you do, provide links to hard evidence. The Traditional Way To Maintain A Discussion.
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draig
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Penfold
Thursday, 20. September 2012, 16:16
However I leave the last word on the subject to that great catholic convert, G K Chesterton KC*SG;

Quote:
 
Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to that arrogant oligarchy who merely happen to be walking around.
Gilbert K. Chesterton
But tradition can also be turned into the despotism of the dead, refusing to submit to changes needed for life due to the desire to uphold the passive oligarchy of those who merely happen to be deceased.
Gripe. Moan. Snipe. Ignore any inconvenient truth. Don't provide specific data. Don't, whatever you do, provide links to hard evidence. The Traditional Way To Maintain A Discussion.
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Gerard

draig
Thursday, 20. September 2012, 17:09

Spot on here Gerry, but it is more pleasing to have a nice table setting for a special celebration meal then to eat off paper plates using plastic cutlery. The food would still be the same though.
Ahhhh....

Now some might like to use a wooden or pottery cup rather than a gold plated chalice. Presumably because they think it closer to a tradition. Others prefer gold plated chalices. Presumable because they think it is closer to tradition.

Not everyone wants that nice tablesetting. But, for the moment, these are not free to follow their tradition.

Just one example.

Gerry

"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Gerard

Rose of York
Monday, 10. September 2012, 00:40
... Cardinal Martini ...


... our rituals and our clothes are pompous.

"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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draig
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Gerard
Thursday, 20. September 2012, 17:23
draig
Thursday, 20. September 2012, 17:09

Spot on here Gerry, but it is more pleasing to have a nice table setting for a special celebration meal then to eat off paper plates using plastic cutlery. The food would still be the same though.
Ahhhh....

Now some might like to use a wooden or pottery cup rather than a gold plated chalice. Presumably because they think it closer to a tradition. Others prefer gold plated chalices. Presumable because they think it is closer to tradition.

Not everyone wants that nice tablesetting. But, for the moment, these are not free to follow their tradition.

Just one example.

Gerry

You know, I've had communion from golden, silver, wooden and pottery vessels but at the time I have never stopped to think about the vessel itself.

However, I have been in lots of overly decorated church interiors where the decor has distracted me from Mass.

Yet I feel what is precious should not be dictated as it varies from place to place (eg wood is very precious in a place with no trees).
Gripe. Moan. Snipe. Ignore any inconvenient truth. Don't provide specific data. Don't, whatever you do, provide links to hard evidence. The Traditional Way To Maintain A Discussion.
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Rose of York
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Gerard
Thursday, 20. September 2012, 17:23
Now some might like to use a wooden or pottery cup rather than a gold plated chalice. Presumably because they think it closer to a tradition. Others prefer gold plated chalices. Presumable because they think it is closer to tradition.

Not everyone wants that nice tablesetting. But, for the moment, these are not free to follow their tradition.
There may be hope for thpse people. Here are the words of Archbishop Gerhard Ludwig Müller, new head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. He's still alive, so who knows what regulations will be updated to make allowance for tastes and cultures.

http://www.indcatholicnews.com/news.php?viewStory=21073

Quote:
 
New head of CDF hopes to reduce tensions in the Church

Archbishop Gerhard Ludwig Müller, new head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF), says he sees the polarization between traditionalists and progressives as the most important challenge faced by the Church.
Keep the Faith!

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Gerard

draig
Thursday, 20. September 2012, 17:55
You know, I've had communion from golden, silver, wooden and pottery vessels but at the time I have never stopped to think about the vessel itself.
I have. Others have and do. Those in power certainly have - and they make rules about it. Rules of men.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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CARLO
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What is wrong with wanting the best with which to honour God and celebrate Mass?

I get the impression that some will not be happy until they are worshipping on a bomb site with vestments and church plate taken from a rubbish skip!

De profundis
Out of the depths


CARLO
:betterLatin:

Judica me Deus
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