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Is This a Pointer for England and Wales?
Topic Started: Friday, 24. August 2012, 16:41 (442 Views)
draig
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Derekap
Sunday, 26. August 2012, 20:18
draig, I'm not suggesting 'attendance' of Holy Mass on the internet should be regarded as valid for the fit and agile or when Holy Mass on Sunday is available.
Derek, I didn't think you were. Essentially you are saying anyone could watch a mass as an adjunct to reading the prayers from the mass, which is what is generally suggested you do if you cannot get to mass for whatever reason.

However, Paul said;

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time for the church to consider virtual reality and allow people to hear mass via their pc

and to me that indictes he considers the virtual mass should be considered as valid.

I don't agree with this for mass, but I do think it would be interesting to consider telecommunication for confessions
Gripe. Moan. Snipe. Ignore any inconvenient truth. Don't provide specific data. Don't, whatever you do, provide links to hard evidence. The Traditional Way To Maintain A Discussion.
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Rose of York
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paul
Sunday, 26. August 2012, 18:50
cheap booze from supermarkets is seeing the decline of the local pub the usual meeting place for communities. The decline in the number of priests will see the number of churches fall. Internet access is a boon for disabled and those people without a local church. The church needs to build on the advantages of the internet and exploit its potential to reach out to those people.
The dilema for the church revolves around liturgy....time for a fundamental rethink??
We should not take the attitude that the decline will continue for the rest of our lifetimes. It is our responsibility to pray for more vocations to priesthood and give encouragement to men who feel the call.

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Internet access is a boon for disabled and those people without a local church. The church needs to build on the advantages of the internet and exploit its potential to reach out to those people.

Disability does not automatically exempt any person from the obligation to attend Mass on Sundays and Holydays of Obligation. That depends upon the nature of the disability, and whether it is accompanied by illness or frailty. Only a minority of people with disabilities are unable to enter fully accessible premises. Some have disabilities without being ill.

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The dilemna for the church revolves around liturgy....time for a fundamental rethink??
I am not sure what you mean by a rethink. Do you mean to say changes in liturgy would get us more priests? Every part of the Mass is important. Some like it quiet, some like lots of music, and in that aspect it is impossible for a church with only one weekend Mass to cater for all preferences. There is nothing on this earth more simultaneously sublime and exciting than the consecration, our divine saviour coming to us whole and entire, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. A person who loves the Mass and appreciates its wonder will, if only one church is within reasonable travelling distance, be there whatever the "style" of worship.
Keep the Faith!

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Rose of York
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paul
Sunday, 26. August 2012, 14:29
Is it time for the church to consider virtual reality and allow people to hear mass via their pc? Receiving the Holy Sacrament could be dealt with my lay eucharitic ministers.
No it is not time for that. Many a person has wandered into a church out of curiosity, their imagination and curiosity have been fired, they have made further inquiries and joined the Church. A church building shows that a town or district has a living Catholic community.

Who would provide sufficient consecrated hosts for lay extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion? How would the priest know the individual laity well enough to make a wise selection of suitable persons to go out to every house where there are former regular Mass attenders?

By belonging to a parish I can meet and talk with people who share my Catholic faith. A person who has little knowledge of Catholic teaching can talk things over with the others. Young people now and in the past have always been open to influences. Regular attendance at Mass helps them have some Catholic Christian influence, to counteract bad examples and anti religious propaganda. If we close the church and sell it, usually the parish hall is part of the same property, that goes, where can people to to learn about the faith?

Take away Holy Communion? No thanks.
Keep the Faith!

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Rose of York
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Funerals to be presided over by lay Funeral Ministers

The Archdiocese of Liverpool is already using lay Funeral Ministers. The Funeral Vigil and the committal at the graveside or crematorium may be conducted by one of them. The booklet "Planning a Catholic Funeral" states

The Archdiocese of Liverpool
 
The Funeral Service

This is the community's main celebration and prayer for the deceased. This could be a Funeral Mass, but if the majority of the mourners would not be able to participate fully in a Mass, or if no priest is available, it may be a Funeral Service led by a Lay Funeral Minister or a Deacon. There can be no guarantee that all the deceased's wishes will be fulfilled, even where a pre-paid funeral has been arranged.

Liverpool Archdiocese booklet "Planning a Catholic Funeral"

I see no harm in this provided it is only done when, in extreme circumstances, no priest or deacon is available. My hope would be that the lay Funeral Ministers would be carefully selected, not automatically selected from those who are already Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion, lectors, readers or organists. If laity are to be more involved in the spiritual aspect of parish life, we need more people doing one or two tasks each, not a small group doing so much they appear to be the elect.

When selecting funeral ministers, personal attitude will need to be taken into account. Different people need approaching in different ways, when bereaved.
Keep the Faith!

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Penfold
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I am confused as to why Liverpool is not making better use of deacons for this task. What worries me is that we may fall back into the bad old ways with marriages that certain people got the PP and then the senior curate and so on down. Who qualifies for a priest or deacon and who has to make do with a lay person. I can see a lot of upset.
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Rose of York
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We are often reminded to pray for and foster vocations to priesthood. I have yet to see any printed material or hear a talk, or mention in a sermon, encouraging married, or single, men to consider the vocation to the permanent diaconate. Many who are financially secure retire at the age of 55 or 60 on reasonable pensions, are free of financial responsibility for their children (and some never had children), their houses are paid off, and not all of them are looking for paid work. They have much to offer. Where is the encouraging call for them to come forward, and contact the vocations director?
Keep the Faith!

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Eileenanne

Rose of York
Tuesday, 28. August 2012, 16:44
We are often reminded to pray for and foster vocations to priesthood. I have yet to see any printed material or hear a talk, or mention in a sermon, encouraging married, or single, men to consider the vocation to the permanent diaconate. Many who are financially secure retire at the age of 55 or 60 on reasonable pensions, are free of financial responsibility for their children (and some never had children), their houses are paid off, and not all of them are looking for paid work. They have much to offer. Where is the encouraging call for them to come forward, and contact the vocations director?
It's in our parish bulletin every week.

Eileenanne
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garfield

Rose of York
Tuesday, 28. August 2012, 16:44
We are often reminded to pray for and foster vocations to priesthood. I have yet to see any printed material or hear a talk, or mention in a sermon, encouraging married, or single, men to consider the vocation to the permanent diaconate. Many who are financially secure retire at the age of 55 or 60 on reasonable pensions, are free of financial responsibility for their children (and some never had children), their houses are paid off, and not all of them are looking for paid work. They have much to offer. Where is the encouraging call for them to come forward, and contact the vocations director?
I know it is an old argument but really why can't women be deacons too?
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Penfold
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garfield
Thursday, 30. August 2012, 14:06
argument but really why can't women be deacons too?
Simple answer, the Pope has said no. Complicated answer, the Pope says no.
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OsullivanB

Simple question: why does the Pope say no?

I think the better we understand things, the more fully we can accept them. That is not dissent, but a request for enlightenment.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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Penfold
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OsullivanB
Thursday, 30. August 2012, 17:28
Simple question: why does the Pope say no?

I think the better we understand things, the more fully we can accept them. That is not dissent, but a request for enlightenment.
Simple answer, fear of having to admit mistake made in previous generations.
complicated answer, I have no idea... not dissent just an admission of ignorance.
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Rose of York
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I would not want to diminish the value of permanent deacons, they have a worthwhile ministry. However, now that Liverpool Archdiocese is having lay Funeral Ministers to conduct non sacramental funeral services and commital services at the grave or crematorium, I know of only two roles that may be done by a deacon but not by a lay man or woman. Am I correct in thinking that witnessing marriages and preaching are the only things they may do and we may not? If so it seems silly that a woman cannot do them, just because deacons are ordained members of the clergy, therefore must be male. Women may act as witnesses at weddings (usually as bridesmaids). They may not witness the exchange of vows, on behalf of the Church. Women may teach the Catholic faith up to and beyond A level equivalent. They may not give a sermon. It seems daft that if I were qualified I could teach people to the point where they can be RE teachers or lecturers, but I will never be permitted even to deliver a brief five minute sermon at a weekday Mass.

The hierarchy call upon laity to be more active in the Church!

(Tongue in cheek comment coming up)..... A deacon studies for four years in preparation for ordination. Is it assumed that a faithful Catholic woman will need time off from study for the last few months of pregnancy, a few more months for breastfeeding, then after a few weeks break from those responsibilities, need time off for the next pregnancy, and so ad infinitum, whatever age she is?

Keep the Faith!

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Penfold
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Rose of York
Thursday, 30. August 2012, 19:59
Am I correct in thinking that witnessing marriages and preaching are the only things they may do and we may not?
The minister for the sacrament of marriage is the couple getting married, the priest, deacon or appointed lay person acts only as a witness. The deacons only role that He can perform that can not be done by lay people is proclaim the Gospel, that is preach a sermon.

What a person misses by not having a priest at the wedding is the Nuptial Mass, which in these days were mixed marriages are the norm it is more common not to have a nuptial Mass. What will be missing from the funeral will be the Requiem Mass. Lay folk have been conducting both weddings and funerals for centuries.

What deacons add is arguably just cosmetic, personally I am of the opinion that they add dignity. Diminishing that dignity may in the short term open the way for greater female involvement but I think the better way is to pray for women to be able to conduct the ministry with the full dignity. (Just my opinion)
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Derekap
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At one time, within my experience, Nuptial Mass was not permitted for mixed marriages now it is an option. If a couple are the ministers for The Sacrament of Marriage before a priest, deacon or layman then a Registry Office ceremony is technically valid for the couple- even if they are Catholics?

I've never heard of lay people conducting funerals in normal circumstances. Obviously before priests arrived in newly discovered territories or during conflicts laypeople would be forced to do so.
Derekap
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Penfold
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Derekap
Friday, 31. August 2012, 13:41
At one time, within my experience, Nuptial Mass was not permitted for mixed marriages now it is an option. If a couple are the ministers for The Sacrament of Marriage before a priest, deacon or layman then a Registry Office ceremony is technically valid for the couple- even if they are Catholics?
No for a Roman Catholic Marriage to be Valid it must be witnessed by two witnesses plus a priest, deacon or duly appointed/delegated lay person. The couple administer the Sacrament but the validity of the marriage also requires the authentication provided by the witnesses.

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Can. 1112 §1. Where there is a lack of priests and deacons, the diocesan bishop can delegate lay persons to assist at marriages, with the previous favorable vote of the conference of bishops and after he has obtained the permission of the Holy See. §2. To be valid, the delegation of the faculty to assist at marriages must be given to specific persons expressly.

If it concerns special delegation, it must be given for a specific marriage; if it concerns general delegation, it must be given in writing.

Can. 1112 §1. Where there is a lack of priests and deacons, the diocesan bishop can delegate lay persons to assist at marriages, with the previous favorable vote of the conference of bishops and after he has obtained the permission of the Holy See.

§2. A suitable lay person is to be selected, who is capable of giving instruction to those preparing to be married and able to perform the matrimonial liturgy properly.

Can. 1113 Before special delegation is granted, all those things which the law has established to prove free status are to be fulfilled.
Edited by Penfold, Friday, 31. August 2012, 14:11.
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