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| Is This a Pointer for England and Wales? | |
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| Topic Started: Friday, 24. August 2012, 16:41 (442 Views) | |
| draig | Sunday, 26. August 2012, 21:15 Post #16 |
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Derek, I didn't think you were. Essentially you are saying anyone could watch a mass as an adjunct to reading the prayers from the mass, which is what is generally suggested you do if you cannot get to mass for whatever reason. However, Paul said;
and to me that indictes he considers the virtual mass should be considered as valid. I don't agree with this for mass, but I do think it would be interesting to consider telecommunication for confessions |
| Gripe. Moan. Snipe. Ignore any inconvenient truth. Don't provide specific data. Don't, whatever you do, provide links to hard evidence. The Traditional Way To Maintain A Discussion. | |
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| Rose of York | Sunday, 26. August 2012, 23:12 Post #17 |
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We should not take the attitude that the decline will continue for the rest of our lifetimes. It is our responsibility to pray for more vocations to priesthood and give encouragement to men who feel the call.
Disability does not automatically exempt any person from the obligation to attend Mass on Sundays and Holydays of Obligation. That depends upon the nature of the disability, and whether it is accompanied by illness or frailty. Only a minority of people with disabilities are unable to enter fully accessible premises. Some have disabilities without being ill. I am not sure what you mean by a rethink. Do you mean to say changes in liturgy would get us more priests? Every part of the Mass is important. Some like it quiet, some like lots of music, and in that aspect it is impossible for a church with only one weekend Mass to cater for all preferences. There is nothing on this earth more simultaneously sublime and exciting than the consecration, our divine saviour coming to us whole and entire, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. A person who loves the Mass and appreciates its wonder will, if only one church is within reasonable travelling distance, be there whatever the "style" of worship. |
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Keep the Faith! | |
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| Rose of York | Sunday, 26. August 2012, 23:24 Post #18 |
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No it is not time for that. Many a person has wandered into a church out of curiosity, their imagination and curiosity have been fired, they have made further inquiries and joined the Church. A church building shows that a town or district has a living Catholic community. Who would provide sufficient consecrated hosts for lay extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion? How would the priest know the individual laity well enough to make a wise selection of suitable persons to go out to every house where there are former regular Mass attenders? By belonging to a parish I can meet and talk with people who share my Catholic faith. A person who has little knowledge of Catholic teaching can talk things over with the others. Young people now and in the past have always been open to influences. Regular attendance at Mass helps them have some Catholic Christian influence, to counteract bad examples and anti religious propaganda. If we close the church and sell it, usually the parish hall is part of the same property, that goes, where can people to to learn about the faith? Take away Holy Communion? No thanks. |
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Keep the Faith! | |
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| Rose of York | Tuesday, 28. August 2012, 15:54 Post #19 |
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Funerals to be presided over by lay Funeral Ministers The Archdiocese of Liverpool is already using lay Funeral Ministers. The Funeral Vigil and the committal at the graveside or crematorium may be conducted by one of them. The booklet "Planning a Catholic Funeral" states
Liverpool Archdiocese booklet "Planning a Catholic Funeral" I see no harm in this provided it is only done when, in extreme circumstances, no priest or deacon is available. My hope would be that the lay Funeral Ministers would be carefully selected, not automatically selected from those who are already Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion, lectors, readers or organists. If laity are to be more involved in the spiritual aspect of parish life, we need more people doing one or two tasks each, not a small group doing so much they appear to be the elect. When selecting funeral ministers, personal attitude will need to be taken into account. Different people need approaching in different ways, when bereaved. |
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Keep the Faith! | |
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| Penfold | Tuesday, 28. August 2012, 16:18 Post #20 |
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I am confused as to why Liverpool is not making better use of deacons for this task. What worries me is that we may fall back into the bad old ways with marriages that certain people got the PP and then the senior curate and so on down. Who qualifies for a priest or deacon and who has to make do with a lay person. I can see a lot of upset. |
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| Rose of York | Tuesday, 28. August 2012, 16:44 Post #21 |
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We are often reminded to pray for and foster vocations to priesthood. I have yet to see any printed material or hear a talk, or mention in a sermon, encouraging married, or single, men to consider the vocation to the permanent diaconate. Many who are financially secure retire at the age of 55 or 60 on reasonable pensions, are free of financial responsibility for their children (and some never had children), their houses are paid off, and not all of them are looking for paid work. They have much to offer. Where is the encouraging call for them to come forward, and contact the vocations director? |
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Keep the Faith! | |
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| Eileenanne | Tuesday, 28. August 2012, 20:39 Post #22 |
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It's in our parish bulletin every week. Eileenanne |
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| garfield | Thursday, 30. August 2012, 14:06 Post #23 |
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I know it is an old argument but really why can't women be deacons too? |
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| Penfold | Thursday, 30. August 2012, 14:23 Post #24 |
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Simple answer, the Pope has said no. Complicated answer, the Pope says no. |
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| OsullivanB | Thursday, 30. August 2012, 17:28 Post #25 |
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Simple question: why does the Pope say no? I think the better we understand things, the more fully we can accept them. That is not dissent, but a request for enlightenment. |
| "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer | |
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| Penfold | Thursday, 30. August 2012, 19:14 Post #26 |
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Simple answer, fear of having to admit mistake made in previous generations. complicated answer, I have no idea... not dissent just an admission of ignorance. |
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| Rose of York | Thursday, 30. August 2012, 19:59 Post #27 |
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I would not want to diminish the value of permanent deacons, they have a worthwhile ministry. However, now that Liverpool Archdiocese is having lay Funeral Ministers to conduct non sacramental funeral services and commital services at the grave or crematorium, I know of only two roles that may be done by a deacon but not by a lay man or woman. Am I correct in thinking that witnessing marriages and preaching are the only things they may do and we may not? If so it seems silly that a woman cannot do them, just because deacons are ordained members of the clergy, therefore must be male. Women may act as witnesses at weddings (usually as bridesmaids). They may not witness the exchange of vows, on behalf of the Church. Women may teach the Catholic faith up to and beyond A level equivalent. They may not give a sermon. It seems daft that if I were qualified I could teach people to the point where they can be RE teachers or lecturers, but I will never be permitted even to deliver a brief five minute sermon at a weekday Mass. The hierarchy call upon laity to be more active in the Church! (Tongue in cheek comment coming up)..... A deacon studies for four years in preparation for ordination. Is it assumed that a faithful Catholic woman will need time off from study for the last few months of pregnancy, a few more months for breastfeeding, then after a few weeks break from those responsibilities, need time off for the next pregnancy, and so ad infinitum, whatever age she is? |
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Keep the Faith! | |
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| Penfold | Thursday, 30. August 2012, 21:23 Post #28 |
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The minister for the sacrament of marriage is the couple getting married, the priest, deacon or appointed lay person acts only as a witness. The deacons only role that He can perform that can not be done by lay people is proclaim the Gospel, that is preach a sermon. What a person misses by not having a priest at the wedding is the Nuptial Mass, which in these days were mixed marriages are the norm it is more common not to have a nuptial Mass. What will be missing from the funeral will be the Requiem Mass. Lay folk have been conducting both weddings and funerals for centuries. What deacons add is arguably just cosmetic, personally I am of the opinion that they add dignity. Diminishing that dignity may in the short term open the way for greater female involvement but I think the better way is to pray for women to be able to conduct the ministry with the full dignity. (Just my opinion) |
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| Derekap | Friday, 31. August 2012, 13:41 Post #29 |
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At one time, within my experience, Nuptial Mass was not permitted for mixed marriages now it is an option. If a couple are the ministers for The Sacrament of Marriage before a priest, deacon or layman then a Registry Office ceremony is technically valid for the couple- even if they are Catholics? I've never heard of lay people conducting funerals in normal circumstances. Obviously before priests arrived in newly discovered territories or during conflicts laypeople would be forced to do so. |
| Derekap | |
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| Penfold | Friday, 31. August 2012, 14:04 Post #30 |
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No for a Roman Catholic Marriage to be Valid it must be witnessed by two witnesses plus a priest, deacon or duly appointed/delegated lay person. The couple administer the Sacrament but the validity of the marriage also requires the authentication provided by the witnesses.
Edited by Penfold, Friday, 31. August 2012, 14:11.
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8:38 PM Jul 11