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| Pope Benedict speaking about liturgical developments | |
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| Topic Started: Friday, 17. August 2012, 23:21 (298 Views) | |
| Rose of York | Friday, 17. August 2012, 23:21 Post #1 |
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Monsignor Andrew Wadsworth, current head of the International Commission on English Liturgy, delivered the keynote address to the Church Music Association of America in Salt Lake City on 27 June. He spoke at length about Pope Benedict's address to the Eucharistic Congress, about the development in the liturgy since the Second Vatican Council. Below is a partial quote from The Tablet Blog, and I think it is well worth discussing. To read the rest of Mgr Wadsworth's observations, and readers' comments, click the link. http://www.thetablet.co.uk/blogs/333/18
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Keep the Faith! | |
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| OsullivanB | Friday, 17. August 2012, 23:41 Post #2 |
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The Pope appears to be complaining about the state of liturgical practice. The question occurs to me: Whose job might it be to do something about it? The answer that occurs to me is: Probably the Pope's. |
| "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer | |
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| Derekap | Saturday, 18. August 2012, 08:22 Post #3 |
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"• A wider selection of lections in the Mass and all the Sacramental Rites has strengthened the idea that Scripture is part of the primitive liturgical êÞñõãìá" If this means a wider choice of Readings from the Bible over two or three years - I agree. "Where provision has been made for individual Confession, there has been a return to the centrality of the Sacrament of Penance in the personal journey of conversion" One parish I know of sometimes some weeks has no period of Confessions and the bulletin says so. The parish I attend always has before Holy Mass on Saturday Evenings but there is never a queue and people go into the Sascristy for the confessional rather than use the direct door so I don't know whether they enter the Sacristy on business or for Confession. "A sense of the communion of the Church has become limited to local communities that are in many ways self-selecting - many Catholics have a poor understanding of what it means to belong to the Universal Church but a highly developed understanding of what it means to belong to a self-selecting parish community of people like themselves" No more than ever was. In fact many through greater opportunities of holidays and travel are more likely to have a more universal idea. An occasional sermon mentioning other countries and Rites and the probability of there being always Holy Mass being offered somewhere in the world- more so since Holy Mass is no longer confined to start before noon. "The multiplication of liturgical ‘ministries' has led to considerable confusion and error concerning the relationship between the ministerial priesthood and the common priesthood of the baptized. Personally speaking I'm not confused. • The liturgy often seems to have the quality of a performance with the priest and liturgical ministers cast in the roles of performers and behaving accordingly. Consequently, congregations are often expecting to be ‘entertained' rather as spectators might be at a theatre. More so in 'The Goode Olde Days' where apart from the occasional "Amen" and "Et cum Spiritu Duo" the Celebrant having recited the Gloria and Creed sat down along with the congregation to be entertained by the choir belting out the classical versions. "The transference of Solemnities which are holydays of obligation to Sundays destroys the internal dynamics of the liturgical cycle e.g. The Epiphany and The Ascension" Prior to V2 Holy Mass on these days was often offered in a very perfunctory manner in the ordinary parish churches. One got the impression 'Let's get it over with and get on with our duties'. And circumstances in this country where such days are not public holidays (apart from Christmas Days) the observance is usually more in knowledge than practice. It is all very well for the Vatican, Bishops in their Cathedrals and Religious Communities to preach. The manner of the distribution and reception of Holy Communion (including the appropriateness of one's reception of Communion at a particular Mass) has led to a casual disregard for this great Sacrament. Through the internet I 'attend' Holy Mass in a number of churches and the orderly manner in which people queue up to receive Holy Communion is preferable to the old chaos which I found was often very distracting indeed to my experience. An occasional reminder from the pulpit to be more personally devout might be helpful. " Much music did not ‘correspond to the spirit of the liturgical action' [GIRM #41] such as the celebrity spot during the distribution of Holy Communion of 3 clerical tenors, ‘The Priests', singing the impossibly sentimental song 'May the road rise up to meet you'. I feel like asking, just what is wrong with the Communion antiphon and psalm?" Better than a psalm (unless it is the hymn 'The Lord is my Shepherd) what better than: 'O Sacrament Divine' or 'O Bread of Heaven' etc. "Despite the international character of the occasion, the use of Latin in the people's sung parts was almost non-existent (cf GIRM#41)" Latin was introduced originally because it was the vernacular in them there days - it no longer is. I think I have ranted enough. |
| Derekap | |
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| Rose of York | Saturday, 18. August 2012, 11:07 Post #4 |
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No you haven't, Derek. You, being in your late eighties, and being widely traveled, have wide first hand experience of the Mass in the universal Church pre and post Vatican II than any of us. I would like to hear how you feel about the common practise of singing the Gloria and Creed. I find it easier to pray them, giving thought to the meaning, when we say, not sing, them. |
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| Derekap | Saturday, 18. August 2012, 12:24 Post #5 |
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Rose asked: "I would like to hear how you feel about the common practise of singing the Gloria and Creed. I find it easier to pray them, giving thought to the meaning, when we say, not sing, them" Since the introduction of The Ordinary Form I can't remember hearing an English version of the Creed sung and only occasionally in Latin Gregorian Chant Form which may not be comprehendable to at least half of the congregations. With regard to the Gloria I've known only the Peruvian version which I think is more glorious than the old classical Latin versions (Sorry Angus, Clare, Carlo et al!). So by far on the majority of occasions I have recited them. One thing I miss since moving from my previous parish is the opportunity to sing The Lord's Prayer to a particular tune. It was much better than reciting it. In a casual chat (with other people) with one of the organists I suggested it but nothing came of it. The Offertory Hymn with two verses for the bread and the wine and the Chorus: "Bless-ed be God, Bless-ed be God, Bless-ed be God forever Amen" (repeated) I think is very appropriate. I think the more the congregation can join in responses and singing the better. There is a more COMMUNAL worship instead of 'them (Sanctuary, Choir) and Us'. |
| Derekap | |
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| Rose of York | Saturday, 18. August 2012, 13:06 Post #6 |
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YES! In childhood I thought the Mass was something the priest and servers did, remote from "inferiors" who were left to pray in whatever means they chose. We were onlookers. Some said the rosary, others would read prayers from books that were nothing to do with the Mass. Hardly any parishioners had missals, and there were no Mass books or missalets available for the congregation. The attitude must have been that we did not need to understand the meaning of the Latin prayers. If anybody says "they could have bought missals, with the English alongside the Latin" my answer is that many could not afford missals, and some of my school friends had grandparents who could not read, and parents who had left school at the age of 14, and could not read "long words". We were taught about the great miracle at the consecration, and knew what a great thing it was to receive Jesus. |
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| paul | Saturday, 18. August 2012, 18:49 Post #7 |
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How can singing the creed or any other prayer increase my devotion. When I pray, I don't sing (I have no voice to appreciate). I hate it when people recite the Lord's prayer during mass without feeling or emphasis. I deliberately say it (not sing it) with feeling and expression. It is the greatest of prayers given to us by Christ himself. He didn't sing it! I cannot follow liturgy when it is sung, to me it just becomes theatre. |
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| Derekap | Saturday, 18. August 2012, 19:41 Post #8 |
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I cannot recall any reference to Jesus Christ singing but then I don't think He said: "Don't sing". My voice is also crokey Alan and a young lady near us in church sings with more than a full heart - but her voice is off-key so it's discouraging. I don't move because the place is one of two where I can stand comfortably without being cast to the very side with a poor view of the Celebrant. |
| Derekap | |
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| Rose of York | Saturday, 18. August 2012, 20:13 Post #9 |
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The Holy Thursday and Holy Saturday Masses were attended by few, generally the regular daily Mass attenders. The general impression used to be that the Daily Office was reserved for clergy and religious.
There was nothing from the Old Testament in the readings, that minimised out understanding that Christianity is the fulfilment of the original faith of the "chosen people". What exactly is the liturgical movement? Is it a concept, a Congregation, a society, a fad? Does the Pope include guitars in 'various functions of music'? Revision of the Rite of Baptism has led to the stress being on membership of the Church, little or no mention of Original Sin. Where there is no provision for individual confession the local bishop should be asking why not. Renewal of the Rite of the Worship of the Blessed Eucharist outside Mass? When evening Masses were not allowed due to the midnight fasting requirement, every church I knew had Holy Hour and Benediction every Sunday without fail. in our country, Eucharistic adoration became unusual. It depends upon the wish of the parish priest. My parish did not have it until we got a new priest, former Anglo Catholic vicar. Now we do have Exposition of the Blessed Sacrament. The Holy Father speaks of the Church in general terms, what happens in one parish might not happen in another a couple of miles away. What is usual in one State in America might be rare in, say, Norway. |
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| Penfold | Saturday, 18. August 2012, 20:41 Post #10 |
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One of the problems with the New Testament writers is that they did not consider it necessary to report details which would have been obvious to them. The Psalms are songs and would be sung in the Synagogue by Jesus just as they should be sung today. It is also worth noting the words of St Augustine
Music and singing have played and I hope will continue to play a part in worship since the very earliest of times. The sad reality is that few parishes in the UK have proper choirs or music groups today, where I have been fortunate enough to encourage a few musicians to from a group and to practice the congregations have always grown considerably as a result of the improvements to the liturgical celebrations. Though for those stuck with a "One finger one thumb" organist and I pity those of you who have one, especially when they think they can also play the pedals, I agree the music is often detrimental to the liturgy. |
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| Derekap | Sunday, 19. August 2012, 12:18 Post #11 |
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"Singing is praying. When one sings one prays twice - so said the great saint Augustine. While singing in the front of the Lord, we are in touch with the deepest center of our heart. Whatever moves there, comes out before our Creator as a loving offering to Him. The emotions of joy, grief, anger and frustration pour out in the presence of the Lord in loving trust and total self-surrender. In that ecstatic moment, we feel that gentle touch of the Divine wiping away the tears from our eye; we are filled with a new hope in the Almighty, guiding our destiny. Singing together is praying together - brothers and sisters in deep communion with each other in the overflowing love of God." I agree with St Augustine especially: "Singing together is praying together". Not being entertained or suffering a well-intentioned but poor effort. Occasional notices for Sunday in the press advertise the composer of the Holy Mass music and the motets - in a similar manner to the proms. Though I must admit being inspired by well-sung pieces like 'Panis Angelicus' or 'Ave Maria' |
| Derekap | |
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| Rose of York | Sunday, 19. August 2012, 14:06 Post #12 |
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I have yet to see an advert for a folk Mass. |
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| pete | Sunday, 19. August 2012, 18:08 Post #13 |
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Derek so far everything you have said I agree with. Last month however it was our Bishops 50th Jubilee and a special celebration Mass was said for this exceptional occasion. The congregation were encouraged to join in the singing; we were given a programme of the Mass on entering the cathedral which contained all the hymns. The programme also stated that during Holy Communion the cathedral choir would sing Ave Verum. The choir must have rehearsed many hours as it sounded beautiful that is until several people in the congregation decided to put in their gusto and ruined a perfect sound. My point being if invited to do so join in which is what normally happens, but hymns which are rehearsed and conducted by the choir master/ess can be spoilt by the odd voices singing in unison. |
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| Derekap | Monday, 20. August 2012, 12:39 Post #14 |
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It's probably because congregations in England are not so naturally practised for singing as an informal choir as Welsh people. On the other hand 'Avé Verum' is probably better sung in harmony as a practised choir can. |
| Derekap | |
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| garfield | Tuesday, 21. August 2012, 09:06 Post #15 |
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Parish music has to make use of what there is available in the parish, if there is an accomplished organist and a music director with the time, talent and resources to put together a choir and learn Gregorian chant then that is good but how many parishes can do that Edited by garfield, Tuesday, 21. August 2012, 09:08.
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8:37 PM Jul 11