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The Ethics of the Market Place; How can we engage in Ethical shopping/banking
Topic Started: Sunday, 12. August 2012, 06:59 (286 Views)
Penfold
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As a result of a discussion in the thread on Sermons I wonder if there would be any interest in discussing the ethics of the market place.
I am not expert but some of you are well versed in economics and matters of Justice and Peace.
I suggest it might be better to avoid direct attacks on particular stores unless clear evidence is available. In generic terms we are all familiar with the low cost clothing available in many high street stores and out of town shopping centres. For some these are a great blessing enabling them to cloth their children in new clothes rather than second hand clothes from a charity shop or hand me downs. Yet these clothes are made in sweatshops in the Asian subcontinent or Far East. But it is not just clothing, their are many other things, the hymn book you are holding at mass, probably printed in china. But there are also questions to be asked about the way we borrow money, pay tax. How do we engage in ethical shopping and how do we as ordinary folk engage ensure an ethical market.
I am fortunate that I have a comfortable income so being able to pay a few extra pence to by goods in the local farm produce shop is not a problem however some struggle to pay for goods even in the reduced outlet stores. I like milk on my cornflakes, but what price does the farmer get for the milk as opposed to the supermarket owners. What difference can we make, what is our Christian duty, what is that we should do? What can we do?
Rose made reference to the encyclicals Rerum Novarum and Quadragesimo Anno, perhaps these could form part of our discussion. Global economics are complex but we can make some choices that might help to ensure a fairer market place.
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Derekap
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One of many problems is that if we refused to buy cheaper goods from countries which pay very low wages and use very young child labour for very long hours we may be denying them any wage-earning work. How can we in this country control hours of labour and wages in other countries? Firms in this country may offer Xp more on an item with the proviso it goes to the worker but how can we ensure it does? Some governments in other countries are reluctant to have foreign-owned factories otherwise I would say UK companies could buy them and give workers better conditions. However, if, say X store did, then its prices might be more than Y store and naturally customers would patronise Y.

As regards milk prices, I agree the farmers should get a fair deal but if milk is 2p cheaper in A than B then the customer is tempted to buy from A.

In the past I've seen Californian strawberries at the same price as those from the UK. Are the former based on cheap illegal migrant labour (sorry, labor)?

Derekap
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OsullivanB

I suggest these might be fundamental concepts that we might consider:

1. Every single thing without exception that we do and do not do has a Christian moral dimension.

2. Our economic activity is a conspicuous and important example of principle 1.

3. Economic activity permeates most of our life, sleeping and waking e.g. our use of fuel and materials, our engagement with the world of work (including unpaid work), our shopping, our investments (including our banking decisions).

4. Our duty to act morally in this sphere is not negated or diminished by the fact that our own decisions individually make an infinitesimal impact for good or ill.

5. Perhaps the most easily agreed evil to be aware of in making economic activity decisions is the abuse of human beings.

6. A second evil is the degradation of the environment.

7. In many cases there are no easy answers.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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tomais

Theory of Moral Sentiments; nothing new now,as all has been said and written about,re Adam Smith. This book he considered his best work.
So what is new?
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Rose of York
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A young couple or person struggling on a low wage, and paying high housing costs may have no choice but to buy the lowest priced goods available. When their economic situation improves, then they can do their bit, buy from businesses they have reasonable cause to consider ethical.

Kids gone, mortgage gone, higher personal taxation allowance for retirees than younger people, various freebies available courtesy of the taxpayers. That is the time when we can afford to pay a fair price. When we were working our national insurance contributions supported the generation above us. Now, the current workers and small business owners pay for my state pension. By supporting local independent businesses I can make my small contribution to their wage bills and overheads.

The idea of independent butchers being very expensive is a fallacy. We have a very good one who checks on the welfare standards of the farms from which his produce is sourced. His prices are no higher and sometimes lower than the supermarket.
Keep the Faith!

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OsullivanB

tomais
 
Theory of Moral Sentiments
The Penguin Classics edition of this important but neglected work is available on kindle at the astonishing price of 45p!
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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OsullivanB

Rose of York
 
That is the time when we can afford to pay a fair price.
But (relative) poverty is not a justification of unethical purchasing. The only moral answer is to buy things which we can afford to pay a fair price for.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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Penfold
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OsullivanB
Sunday, 12. August 2012, 14:36
Rose of York
 
That is the time when we can afford to pay a fair price.
But (relative) poverty is not a justification of unethical purchasing. The only moral answer is to buy things which we can afford to pay a fair price for.
By this am I correct in interpreting that sometimes we buy things we do not actually need but are socially expected to own or to wear.
For example I can afford to pay a fair price for a plain pair of shoes while a pair of imitation fashion shoes are within my price range but not from an ethical supply chain. I pay a fair price for something I need but do not buy something fashionably desirable.
A tough call for a parent who is trying to ensure their kids are not disadvantaged in the playground, which reawakens the argument for enforcing school uniform, though not much help during holidays and weekends.
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PJD

"I suggest these might be fundamental concepts that we might consider:

1. Every single thing without exception that we do and do not do has a Christian moral dimension."


Yes I agree with OsB on this; the guiding principle is number 1.

At a guess everything else treated on a case for case basis?

PJD
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Rose of York
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Derekap
Sunday, 12. August 2012, 11:40
One of many problems is that if we refused to buy cheaper goods from countries which pay very low wages and use very young child labour for very long hours we may be denying them any wage-earning work.
Here's a suggestion:

Some charities specialise in providing aid and employment in third world countries. A nearly new item of high quality, bought from one of their charity shops will cost about the same as an item of very low quality bought from a retail business that buys goods from countries where the wages are low and children have to work in unhygienic dangerous sweat shops.
Keep the Faith!

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Derekap
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I have spent over half-an-hour starting and restarting a contribution to this debate. Whilst in theory I can see the pros for boycott of such cheap goods I'm unable to get away from the terrible fact that a penny is better than nothing. Whilst govenments in such countries can legislate, the problem is administration of such legislation and corruption. In India the mindset after sixty years of independence and laws against it is still that there are Dalits (Outcastes) even among the poor.

Derekap
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OsullivanB

Derekap, I entirely understand your hesitation. You clearly recognise what I suggested as proposition 7: In many cases there are no easy answers.

To take one example already canvassed: clothing. The questions that arise include the following ( far from exhaustive shortlist);

1. Do the materials from which the garment is made raise any ethical questions? Are they natural? If so, what chemicals are used in farming them? Are they harmful to people and/or the environment? Are the farm workers adults or children and are they decently treated and properly paid? If they are artificial, similar questions arise, plus whether they are biodegradable.

2. Are the workers employed in the manufacture of the garment adults or children? Are they decently treated and properly paid.

3. Where were the materials produced and the manufacture done? Is a tyrannical regime involved? How far have the materials and finished goods travelled? By what transport (a long sea voyage is usually much less environmentally harmful than a short flight)?

The answers to all these questions (even if available) do not necessarily lead to a simple answer to the question: should I buy it? There are sweatshops in the UK. Would the child who helps provide shelter and food for him/herself and others appreciate my fastidiousness if I choose not to buy the garment (s)he has made because I believe (s)he is being exploited?

However, the difficulties in answering do not (I think) excuse us from asking the questions. All we can do is our best to answer them truthfully and then (and this is the really hard part) to act on the answers we find.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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Derekap
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Is a three week voyage disgorging diesel fumes really less polluting than an eight hour flight?
Derekap
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OsullivanB

I have read so. It is said to be because the tonnage of a ship is usually very much greater than that of a 'plane, so that the amount of fuel burned per kilo of freight is very much less by sea, even comparing a long voyage to a short flight.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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Derekap
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Thank You, OsB!!
Derekap
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