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| The College of Cardinals | |
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| Topic Started: Thursday, 9. August 2012, 20:05 (384 Views) | |
| Rose of York | Thursday, 9. August 2012, 20:05 Post #1 |
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The most senior posts in the Vatican are held by Cardinals. Is there a reason why they are never given to laity (male or female)? When a Pope dies his successor is elected by the College of Cardinals. I suppose that is because when St Peter died the surviving apostles elected a successor but that was 2000 years ago. The Church has expanded. If everything had to be done the way it was then, there would be only twelve electors for a new Pope. Is there anything to prevent the current or a future Pope including male and/or female laity on a "Papal electoral body" whose role would be to elect the Bishop of Rome (Pope)? I hope this will not turn into another pro-women priests topic, I am asking whether there is any reason why a Pope may not include laity in the decision making processes of the Church. What about well educated monks with wide experience, who are brothers, not ordained priests? |
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Keep the Faith! | |
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| tomais | Friday, 10. August 2012, 09:23 Post #2 |
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The first Apostle was? Correct! Mary Magdalene! |
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| Rose of York | Monday, 13. August 2012, 23:20 Post #3 |
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Mary Magdalen was not one of the Apostles who elected Peter's successor, so whether or not she was an apostle is irrelevant to my question which was:
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Keep the Faith! | |
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| James | Monday, 13. August 2012, 23:54 Post #4 |
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James
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http://www.rosarychurch.net/answers/qa022003b.html |
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| Penfold | Tuesday, 14. August 2012, 00:23 Post #5 |
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Not a reputable source |
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| Rose of York | Tuesday, 14. August 2012, 00:41 Post #6 |
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Thank you Penfold. I checked on the main sit of rosarychurch.net, and see they belong to a group called "Old Roman Catholic" that broke away from another group (Old Catholics) not in communion with Rome. Are you able to explain why no lay persons may be given an opportunity to take part in a conclave for election of a Pope? There must be a reason. |
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Keep the Faith! | |
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| Penfold | Tuesday, 14. August 2012, 08:25 Post #7 |
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http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_jp-ii_apc_22021996_universi-dominici-gregis_en.html The above gives JPII's amendments and explanations for the Papal election process what is important to note is the process has evolved and that at various times in History. In the middle ages the cardinals were often not priests or bishops and the involvement of the laity in the appointment of Cardinals and thus the election of Popes was different to their role today. It may be that in future the roles will change again, What is worth remembering is that before ordination to the Diaconate a man will already have gone through a rigorous selection process which includes the involvement of lay people and during which parishioners will have had opportunities to express any concerns. This selection process involving the laity is also an integral part in the selection and ordination of a priest so that by the time a person is eligible for selection to the episcopate there has already been extensive lay involvement. In the selection of a Bishop there is also a role for the laity, who are consulted though those consulted are sworn to secrecy to ensure the confidentiality of the process to reduce the opportunities for lobbying and bribery. By the time a person comes to the attention of the Pontiff to be selected as a Cardinal they have already been exposed to much public scrutiny and there has been much lay involvement. The conclave itself is a the final stage in what has been a life long process of discernment and selection of the individuals involved. In it the cardinals pray and with their knowledge of one another and the needs of the church select a candidate whom they believe can best fulfil the role of pope. History has ensured that this final selection is done away from the public gaze and people who might seek to corruptly influence the selection. (This lengthy process of discernment and selection can be bye past if the Cardinals select someone who has not yet been ordained, which they are free to do, but the chances of over 120 cardinals from all over the world selecting an individual from outside their ranks is very remote and would be regarded as a clear intervention of the Holy Spirit.) In brief Rose lay people are not in the conclave because the conclave is a collection of Ordained Men who have already gone through an extensive process of selection which involved lay people. All of them were lay men before being ordained to the Diaconate so if a lay person wishes to be Pope then they should consider first their vocation to the Diaconate and priesthood and parishioners should take an active interest in supporting seminarians and their selection. Parents and relatives of potential candidates, neighbours and parishioners have all been in a position to influence the process right from the start. |
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| paul | Thursday, 16. August 2012, 19:23 Post #8 |
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A good comprehensive answer Penfold. Presumably, fast-tracking is out!! |
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| Rose of York | Thursday, 16. August 2012, 21:55 Post #9 |
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So, there is no reason why a future Pope may not change the rules, and have lay cardinals? Have I got that right? If so, and it is possible for an un-ordained person to be a Cardinal, could women be included (theoretically)?. I accept that bishops have long experience of the Church. So have I! |
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Keep the Faith! | |
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| Penfold | Friday, 17. August 2012, 00:37 Post #10 |
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Cardinals have always been clerics. however in the past they were minor clerics and so not ordained since the 1970 the minor orders have been abolished and so one enters the clerical state when ordained to the Diaconate. In theory a lay man can become Pope but that is because as a man he is eligible for ordination. JPII ruled out any prospect of female ordination, so not much chance of female cardinals. However what you may wish to ask is a lot simpler, any chance of a woman heading a department in the Vatican, That is more than possible, http://www.dici.org/en/news/sister-enrica-rosanna-first-female-under-secretary-of-a-roman-congregation/ http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/jul/20/gender.catholicism http://www.romereports.com/palio/the-pontifical-academy-of-archaeology-celebrates-its-200th-anniversary-english-2432.html#.UC2DzamPXDU not much but its a start, the doors are open. |
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| Derekap | Sunday, 25. November 2012, 21:50 Post #11 |
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In case anyone missed the item, in the last few days the Pope has appointed six new Cardinals, all young enough to vote in any Conclave. They are the Patriarch of the Maronite Church (Lebanon), The Head of the Syro-Malankara Rite (India), and one each from Nigeria, Phillipines, Columbia and the USA. The first two I listed are probably from Catholic Rites older than the Latin Rite. Of course Italians are still in the majority but it is perhaps a slow move to show that the Catholic Church is catholic and not Italian.
Edited by Derekap, Sunday, 25. November 2012, 21:54.
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| Derekap | |
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| Penfold | Monday, 26. November 2012, 00:01 Post #12 |
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There is nothing new in appointing cardinals from the Eastern Rites, this site gives full details of the hierarchy, http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/ there are two Maronite Cardinals currently with voting rites in addition to the two who are to old to vote. alsothere are currently 4 Cardinal-Bishop Patriarchs of the Eastern Rites (Not sure what happend to the 5th, Melkite Greek Catholic Church, I shall check) Nasrallah Pierre Cardinal Sfeir Patriarch Emeritus of Antiochia {Antioch} (Maronite), Lebanon Emmanuel III (Emmanuel-Karim) Cardinal Delly Patriarch of Babylon {Babilonia} (Chaldean), Iraq Antonios Cardinal Naguib Patriarch of Alexandria {Alessandria} (Coptic), Egypt Béchara Boutros Cardinal Raï, O.M.M. Patriarch of Antiochia {Antioch} (Maronite), Lebanon What is worthy of note is that although Cardinal Cormac was 80 in August and so lost his voting rites no English Bishop was appointed at this consistory. It is always good news that cardinals are appointed from non European diocese but in this case they have all replaced existing cardinals, India currently has 5 cardinals with voting rites, 2 of then from Non-Latin Rites. The US Cardinal has been working in the Vatican as the prefect of the Papal Household since 1998 so no surprise at his new appointment. Europe 62 North America 18 Central America 3 South America 14 Asia 11 Oceania 1 Africa 11 120 Voting Cardinals... their are also 91 cardinals over 80 and thus ineligible to vote. Not all vacancies will be automatically filled for they may be retired members of the Curia or in some cases their may be more than one retired cardinal in a country. Although the options for elevating more non-European cardinals is open the college of electors was fixed by Pope Paul VI to 120 though JPII allowed the creation of extra cardinals in an attempt to counterbalance the European Dominance. For example before WW1 over 50% of the Cardinals were from Italy today they constitute less than 20% though there is a long way to go we are at least heading in the right direction. |
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| Rose of York | Monday, 26. November 2012, 00:12 Post #13 |
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Why does Central America have only 3 Cardinals when North America has 18 and South America 14? |
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| Penfold | Monday, 26. November 2012, 00:37 Post #14 |
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Not sure Rose but this may be a contributory factor. Population by region Asia 3,879,000,000 Africa 1,032,532,974 Europe 739,165,030 North America 528,720,588 South America 387,489,196 Central America 41,739,000 Oceania 35,670,000 (UK 62,262,000) Edited to add Africa. it is worth noting that according to the Encyclopaedia Britannica 45% of Africans are Christian,but less than 16% of the population are Catholic. Edited by Penfold, Monday, 26. November 2012, 10:26.
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| Rose of York | Monday, 26. November 2012, 01:31 Post #15 |
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Thanks Penfold. Now I see the spread is fair. |
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Keep the Faith! | |
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8:36 PM Jul 11