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Is God a murderer?
Topic Started: Monday, 2. July 2012, 20:32 (173 Views)
Gerard

I am trasporting a discussion from another thread.
Catholics, and others, are often put off reading the OT because of the violence apparently ordered by God in the taking of the land of Cannan.

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Perhaps on another thread. When I asked is God a murder I did so in the context that demonstrates that throughout history and in particular the recorded history of our relationship with God, which is what the bible is, there are examples of where God is seen to condone and indeed actively engage in the act of assisting Israel in its defence, even when that results in the death of others. If you would like an example of God behaving in such a fashion in the NT take a look at the story of Ananias and Sapphira Acts 5:5-10.


Actually that is the only example of an apparently violent God in the NT. Could we come back to that later?

In the OT my understanding has been that:

1. There is a gradual increasing revelation and understanding of and about God that reaches fruition in Jesus.
2. Israels history is a collection of oral stories which are often exaggerated and later organised and edited to form a coherent story in which the editors apply their understanding of how God (and gods) behave. Thus when they win a battle - God is rewarding them and when they loose a battle God is punishing them.
3. Jesus showed a God of love who loves his enemies and does not fight violence with violence.

So, when we look at the killings in the OY, and in particular the "Ban". We see an imperfect understanding of God and his orders. God is not condoning the killing.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Rose of York
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Others on this forum understand the Old Testament better than I do. I would like to hear from them about my hunch that a person who decided to slaughter every man, woman and child on the enemies side, imagined the thought that came into his head was a message from God.
Keep the Faith!

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OsullivanB

If the Old Testament is so wrong about the thoughts, instructions, emotions and actions that it attributes to God, what is the point of reading it except as we read Assyrian and other ancient texts to find out what people thought in times past? If we don't think it true that God pronounced the great curse of destruction (which was the completion of wars of aggression, not of defence) why do we believe that He was the source of the ten commandments and all the other instruction said to be His word?
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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Gerard

Because it is an increasing revelation of God.
Because it points to Jesus.
Because it helps us understand and contextualise the NT
Because there is more than the literal reading.

Probably some more I havent thought of.

Bernard, I know you study the Bible. Is anything I said in the opening post new to you?

Gerry
Edited by Gerard, Monday, 2. July 2012, 21:25.
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Penfold
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This is why Christians, even as they strive to resist and prevent every form of warfare, have no hesitation in recalling that, in the name of an elementary requirement of justice, peoples have a right and even a duty to protect their existence and freedom by proportionate means against an unjust aggressor (cf. Constitution Gaudium et Spes, 79).


You are correct Gerry in saying that the New Testament is the culmination of all that is promised in the Old which heralds the arrival of the Messiah, Jesus. You are further correct in pointing out that there is more than the literal reading. If I could walk away from my neighbour in distress I would allow the oppression of the innocent and the week. Peace is not the absence of war, it is the absence of injustice, Jesus was a the Prince of Peace but he also demanded justice. I have found moments of peace as rockets exploded near me and felt great disquiet in the safety of my own home, you may put an end to war and send the armies home but unless all live as Jesus taught we will not be at Peace.
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OsullivanB

Gerry
 
Bernard, I know you study the Bible. Is anything I said in the opening post new to you?
No, and that really is the problem. Life was much simpler before I started reading the Bible carefully and particularly before I read the Old Testament in its entirety. The questions I raised are genuine ones which arise from my own study, and I have found it very difficult to find good books, especially Catholic books, which shed light on the problems I encounter (which are more in number and more complex than the superficial summary I offered in my recent post).

Once you accept that some of it really isn't true as written, then discerning which bits are literally true, which are metaphorical and which really are wrong is very difficult. Even with a really reliable guide (which I haven't yet found - the New Jerome is the best I know but often glosses over the really difficult questions) it seems almost a matter of individual judgment than of authoritative and convincing exegesis. That is particularly true, for instance, in the decision about which Torah commands are to be obeyed and which are to be disregarded.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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PJD

"discerning which bits are literally true, which are metaphorical and which really are wrong is very difficult. Even with a really reliable guide (which I haven't yet found - the New Jerome is the best I know but often glosses over the really difficult questions) it seems almost a matter of individual judgment than of authoritative and convincing exegesis. "

Yes I would agree with that line of thought.

PJD
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Gerard

OsullivanB
Monday, 2. July 2012, 22:35
No, and that really is the problem. Life was much simpler before I started reading the Bible carefully and particularly before I read the Old Testament in its entirety. The questions I raised are genuine ones which arise from my own study, and I have found it very difficult to find good books, especially Catholic books, which shed light on the problems I encounter (which are more in number and more complex than the superficial summary I offered in my recent post).

But was it actually simpler? Most catholics know there is a complicated problem in reconciling God as depicted in the OT and as depicted in the NT. They try to resolve this complicated problem by ignoring it and ignoring the OT. However the problem still remains in the back of their mind and will keep popping out to the front occassionally.

The answer is to wrestle with the text. And this may be how we should be dealing with the text at all times anyway. It is in wrestling that we are blessed (Genesis 32:22-31).

We have the enormous benefit of having "seen" the Father in Jesus (in the Gospels) and in being guided into all truth by the Holy Spirit.

Very little of the Bible is actually infallibly defined and so, yes, most of it is almost a matter for individual judgement. But judgement against a background of 2000 years of scholarship and meditation.

I also agree that it is difficult to find good books. I find Jerome just too academic. History and archeology with not enough interpretation. I use the International Bible Commentary

International Bible Commentary

Which I bought from Amazon USA and which is a bit better. And I also use "Alive and Active by Fr Adrian Graffy

Alive and Active

This is only about 200 pages long so dont expect much depth but I find it extremely useful for an overall picture.

I do benefit from going to the Catholic Bible School - particulalrly the study days. While not providing all the answers it is helpful to see how the catholic scholars (usually priests) approach the subject matter.

Catholic Bible School

One book frequently recommended at the School is this one:

Reading the Old Testament

At 600 pages it probably falls in between the two that I use. I must say though that I have not purchased, read or even skimmed this book.

More later
Gerry
Edited by Gerard, Thursday, 5. July 2012, 12:33.
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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OsullivanB

Thank you very much for those suggestions, Gerry. They sound like very valuable.

Having read the Amazon reviews of Reading the Old Testament I have ordered it - "used - like new" £4 plus postage :yahoo:
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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Gerard

Let us know what you think of it after you have been using it for a while. One of the reasons I use Graffy's book is because he does study days at the Bible School (not from his book I hasten to add).

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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