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Catholicism and Christian denominations - what's the difference?
Topic Started: Sunday, 1. July 2012, 22:35 (1,058 Views)
Penfold
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Mairtin
Wednesday, 11. July 2012, 09:41

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... or suggest you both go along and discuss the matter with someone who has a little more knowledge and who might be able to fill out the answers provided in the Catechism

But apparently not yourself.
Mairtin, I have tried to answer your questions both on this thread and others, but invariably you respond in such a way that it is clear you consider my answers to be inadequate or inaccurate. In many cases it is clear that they do not match the answer you want to hear.
If I refer you to Catholic Teaching it is not acceptable well I am sorry but that is all you will get from me.

If you wish to engage in sophistry with Atheists on-line then that is your choice but I have better things to do.
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Mairtin
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OsullivanB
Wednesday, 11. July 2012, 13:15
The Real Presence does not depend on transubstantiation. That is only one theological theory about how this mystery "works". It is a theory based on philosophical concepts which have not worn well with time.
Yes, I realise that, I was only using transubstantiation as a form of shorthand.

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You could just have the New Testament and be a Christian. That is certainly what some denominations were established to attempt. But once you have an institutional church it is almost inevitable that an agreed core of interpretation of Scripture develops.

The New Testament is a very limited account of the public ministry of Jesus and tells us itself that He taught His disciple many things that are not included in it. That's why I regard the three-legged foundation of our Church - scripture+tradition+magisterium - as so important; no other church can offer that and it is, in fact, what keeps me in the Church when at times I feel like walking away in despair. That does not mean that I accept everything the Church says; I do not, for example, subscribe to the concept of papal infallibility as it is commonly portrayed but I do believe that the Holy Spirit is working away in the background, that we do not have to worry about getting things wrong at times because they will eventually work out right if we just let them.

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I don't think many people who think about it doubt that Jesus honours his promise that He is present wherever and whenever two or three gather in His name. Matthew 18:20 is the guarantee.

Well it is only within the last 50 years that our Church has allowed us to participate at all in Protestant worship and she still bars us from participating in their form of Holy Communion; it seems a bit odd to me to bar people from doing something where they will encounter Christ.
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OsullivanB

Fr Timothy Radcliffe is very keen to stress the importance of meeting people (in and out of the church) where they are at. For some one response will be appropriate, for others another. There is no one-size-fits-all. Thank God, the Church meets many, many human needs, spiritual, emotional and intellectual among them.

Because it deals in the written word only, it may be inevitable that a forum will often be intellectual more than emotional. With a fair wind it will usually be spiritual in some dimension of that concept.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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OsullivanB

I think I'm done on this thread. I have done what I can, but do not seem to have helped. So, enough.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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Mairtin
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Penfold
Wednesday, 11. July 2012, 13:48
If you wish to engage in sophistry with Atheists on-line then that is your choice but I have better things to do.
I regard countering nonsense about our Church as important wherever I meet it. One example of something I have battled against with a modicum of success in other forums is the nonsense that the Catholic Church’s teaching on contraception is a major cause of the death of people from AIDS in Africa. I trust you will appreciate the irony in that particular example :wh:
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Mairtin
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OsullivanB
Wednesday, 11. July 2012, 13:50
Fr Timothy Radcliffe is very keen to stress the importance of meeting people (in and out of the church) where they are at. For some one response, will be appropriate, for others another. There is no one-size-fits-all. Thank God, the Church meets many, many human needs, spiritual, emotional and intellectual among them.
She is getting better at it though we seem to be going through a little bit of a period where those more interested in winding back clocks are having an undue influence.

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Because it deals in the written word only, it may be inevitable that a forum will often be intellectual more than emotional. With a fair wind it will usually be spiritual in some dimension of that concept.

Yes but I'm a great believer that we are the sum of all our parts and that we achieve the best spirituality by using all God's gifts - reason, logic, intellect, emotion ...

That reminds me of a wonderful book I'm reading the moment; I'm only about a quarter of the way through but it's rapidly moving to the top of my "best books I have ever read" list; I think you would enjoy it but I'll post more when I get it finished.
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OsullivanB

Thanks for that recommendation, Mairtin. I have added it to me "save for later" list at Amazon.

I agree with you about the multi-dimensional approach. The problem is that the most easily identifiable and expressible emotion online tends to be anger.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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tomais

For those with computor skills,( I have not) see letter in todays Scotsman.Wednesday 11th.,Under Church Charity-written byMartin Conroy Oldhamstocks,East Lothian.Puts Catholic Charity in practice in focus.A good example within Christianity by Catholic Church into perspective and what it means to be a Catholic reaching out into the world.
A practical example,based upon charity
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Eileenanne

It's a good letter Tomais. Thanks for pointing it out.

http://www.scotsman.com/the-scotsman/opinion/letters/church-charity-1-2403365

I wish my brain had the ability to hold on to those statistices for when it would be good to quote them!

Eileenanne
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KatyA

Regarding Mairtin's book recommendation, it may be wise to bear in mind that the author did not always agree with doctrine or Church teaching
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On June 30, 1962, the Holy Office issued a monitum (warning) regarding the writings of Father Teilhard de Chardin. In 1981 the Holy See reiterated this warning against rumors that it no longer applied. Following is the text of both the monitum and the 1981 statement:
EWTN

Just sayin'

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Mairtin
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Eileenanne
Wednesday, 11. July 2012, 15:59
I wish my brain had the ability to hold on to those statistices for when it would be good to quote them!
Our Church is desperately bad at publicising just how much it does; I mentioned a couple of posts above about dealing with people who post nonsense about the Church being responsible for HIV deaths in Africa, one of the facts I usually trot out on such occasions is that the Church is the world's largest single provider of help and services to AIDS/HIV victims, accounting for over 25% of the total help available to them.
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Mairtin
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KatyA
Wednesday, 11. July 2012, 18:25
Regarding Mairtin's book recommendation, it may be wise to bear in mind that the author did not always agree with doctrine or Church teaching
Quote:
 
On June 30, 1962, the Holy Office issued a monitum (warning) regarding the writings of Father Teilhard de Chardin. In 1981 the Holy See reiterated this warning against rumors that it no longer applied. Following is the text of both the monitum and the 1981 statement:
EWTN

Just sayin'

Doesn't that simply put de Chardin is in good company with Augustine and Aquinas? There a school of thought that reckons you can't be a truly great Catholic writer unless you have upset the Vatican at some stage :stirthepot:

Anyway, just for clarification, It was de Chardin who received the reprimand, not the author of the book that I recommended which is a book about one of de Chardin's books as part of which the author explains why de Chardin was originally reprimanded due to misunderstandings but since "rehabilitated" to the extent that in 1981, Cardinal Agostino Casaroli wrote on the front page of l'Osservatore Romano:

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What our contemporaries will undoubtedly remember, beyond the difficulties of conception and deficiencies of expression in this audacious attempt to reach a synthesis, is the testimomy of the coherent life of a man possessed by Christ in the depths of his soul. He [de Chardin] was concerned with honoring both faith and reason, and anticipated the response to John Paul II's appeal: 'Be not afraid, open, open wide to Christ the doors of the immense domains of culture, civilization, and progress.

and in 2009, Pope Benedict said
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We ourselves, with our whole being, must be adoration and sacrifice, and by transforming our world, give it back to God. The role of the priesthood is to consecrate the world so that it may become a living host, a liturgy: so that the liturgy may not be something alongside the reality of the world, but that the world itself shall become a living host, a liturgy. This is also the great vision of Teilhard de Chardin: in the end we shall achieve a true cosmic liturgy, where the cosmos becomes a living host. And let us pray the Lord to help us become priests in this sense, to aid in the transformation of the world, in adoration of God, beginning with ourselves.


So I reckon he's safe enough, Katy :tc:
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Rose of York
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KatyA
Wednesday, 11. July 2012, 18:25
Regarding Mairtin's book recommendation, it may be wise to bear in mind that the author did not always agree with doctrine or Church teaching
Quote:
 
On June 30, 1962, the Holy Office issued a monitum (warning) regarding the writings of Father Teilhard de Chardin. In 1981 the Holy See reiterated this warning against rumors that it no longer applied. Following is the text of both the monitum and the 1981 statement:
EWTN

Just sayin'

Now I am tempted to read the book Mairtin recommended.

:fire:
Keep the Faith!

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Rose of York
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Eileenanne
Wednesday, 11. July 2012, 15:59
It's a good letter Tomais. Thanks for pointing it out.

http://www.scotsman.com/the-scotsman/opinion/letters/church-charity-1-2403365

I wish my brain had the ability to hold on to those statistices for when it would be good to quote them!

Eileenanne
The letter by Martin Conroy was written in response to a previous letter from a correspondent who said that if the Catholic Church had made it a priority, it could have improved the quality of life for poor people all over the world including in Scotland.

Martin Conroy's letter states that the Catholic Church is the second largest international development body (after the UN) in the world as well as being the second largest humanitarian agency (the largest being the Red Cross). He gives facts and figures:

Caritas Internationalis, a Rome-based confederation of 165 national bodies of Catholic charities in more than 200 countries, estimates its combined budget at more than $5 billion (£3.2bn).

A quarter of hospitals in Africa are run by the Catholic Church.
The Catholic Church provides about twelve million school places in Africa.
Around the globe the Catholic Church runs more than 5,000 hospitals, 17,500 dispensaries and 15,000 homes for the elderly, along with tens of thousands of schools.

My reaction? So much for the people who tell us the Catholic Church should start spending it money on helping poor people.
Keep the Faith!

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