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Catholicism and Christian denominations - what's the difference?
Topic Started: Sunday, 1. July 2012, 22:35 (1,062 Views)
Gerard

OK Pete since you are so free with your advice let me advise you to stop putting priests on pedestals and idolising them.

Gerry
Edited by Gerard, Thursday, 5. July 2012, 13:13.
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Rose of York
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pete
Thursday, 5. July 2012, 12:57
The Church cannot exist without priests, it’s like saying a general hospital can operate without doctors and nurses. True the laity can baptise but only in an emergency. The laity cannot offer the sacrifice of the Mass, nether can the laity hear confessions. If you are disillusioned with the institution which I’m so proud to belong to, this is your problem Gerry. I would suggest you find yourself a good confessor, and the institution which you refer too is full of them.
Pete the primary purpose of confession is to seek forgiveness of sins. The state of other people's souls is a private matter between them, God, and at a time they choose, their confessors.
Keep the Faith!

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pete

Quote:
 
Gerry said:-And the pope does not have the kind of authority you suggest. Though popes and others may encourage such beliefs.

You obviously must have proof to make the above account which the Church authorities don’t know about which would put limitations on the statement below made by Jesus himself. To me the word WHATSOEVER means inclusive or complete. I’m not a man of words, but WHATSOEVER couldn’t have been made clearer.
When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? And they said, Some [say that thou art] John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. (Matthew 16:13-19)
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Rose of York
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There is no sense in taking the attitude that all priests and nuns are, by default, holy. I'm prepared to bet that such an attitude gets on the priests and nuns nerves, they are human beings, most likely would prefer a normal conversation than grovel grovel grovel yes father no father three bags full father you are terribly holy please may I lick your boots father.
Keep the Faith!

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Gerard

pete
Thursday, 5. July 2012, 13:32

You obviously must have proof to make the above account which the Church authorities don’t know about which would put limitations on the statement below made by Jesus himself.

I do and the church authorities not only know about it they produce the documents I would use as my proof:

The pope is only infallible when he speaks unequivocally ex cathedra to the whole church on a matter of faith and the whole church accepts it.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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pete


I know all nuns are not saints, I was taught by them, they were good at teaching and some more qualified at using the dreaded cane. I have even come across priests who were not at all pleasant, some downright rude, who paid much more attention to the well off than the lower working class families like mine. The few less desirable religious have made no inpact or difference to my love of the Church whatsoever. I need my Church to help fulfil my life, I need the Mass and the Sacraments and it’s so much more interesting with a good priest and confessor, in addition to this a good friendly church community which I’m blessed to belong
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pete

Quote:
 
The pope is only infallible when he speaks unequivocally ex cathedra to the whole church on a matter of faith and the whole church accepts it

Infallibility was not mentioned Gerry. We are now talking of leadership over the Catholic Church. Our Pope has the last say on church matters, he is responsible for running a very important organisation for the good of the whole Church. As members of this organisation namely the Holy Roman Catholic Church, the Holy Father needs our prayers and support. He’s our Captain and we his crew, if the crew are all to sit around get drunk, moan and not get involved with activities and sustain their captain especially through rough seas, the ship could easily come to disaster. Thankfully for the captain the majority of the crew will come to his assistance until the ship reaches safe anchorage. When the ship’s owner receives the captains report, what do you think his attitude will be towards the rebellious crew members, I shudder to think!!!
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Gerard

Sorry mate, I don't idolise the pope either.
Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Anne-Marie

pete
 
God is certainly not absent in the Church, He abides in the Tabernacle day and night if you care to seek him.

We both used a capital 'C' in Church, pete: That refers to the organisation... yet you are clearly referring to a building, which would have a small 'c' in church. A tabernacle is in a church, not in the Church.
The 'absence' of God in the Church is how many (including active and devout Catholics) perceive things, rightly or wrongly, as I pointed out.
pete
 
What would be your answer Anne-Marie? A referendum amongst the laity?
we have a Pope in charge that has a final say on the matter
it’s not for the likes of you and me to contradict his authority
If you disagree so strongly about it, you are free to jump overboard and join the C of E or one of their 33,000 breakaway so called Christian religions who cater for all tastes.

Did I suggest a referendum, pete?
Did I say we do not have a pope in charge or that his word is not final in the Church?
It IS very much for the likes of you and I to contradict him when he is over-reaching his authority, and even the pope agrees about that!
Who (other than you) suggested I felt so strongly about anything? I reported an exchange, including a point on which many 'good' Catholics would agree (rightly or wrongly) and raised a question.
To suggest that anyone who raises a legitimate question - much though you may dislike such question being asked - should leave the Church is an insult to God.
Please stop being so shrill in your posts, pete.
Edited by Anne-Marie, Thursday, 5. July 2012, 16:57.
Anne-Marie
FIAT VOLUNTAS DEI
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OsullivanB

Just to pursue the shipping analogy a little further, my understanding is that the Royal Navy works on this basis when a group of people need to discuss and the leader to make a discussion. (This may be an urban or perhaps an oceanic myth). The most junior person present is asked for his/her opinion first and then each person gives theirs in ascending order of rank. This means that the less senior are not discouraged from being frank for fear of being seen to contradict the more senior. Having heard from everyone, the senior person makes the decision ultimately reserved to him/her. That has two great merits. First, it means that no original or unpopular view is unvoiced. Secondly, a decision is more readily accepted by those who think differently because at least they are confident that their opinions have been given a respectful hearing. I think there may be scope for such an approach in our Church at all levels of authority. It wouldn't make it a democracy or a debating chamber, but it would promote cohesion and perhaps even fresh thinking.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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Penfold
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Gerard
Thursday, 5. July 2012, 15:05
Sorry mate, I don't idolise the pope either.
Gerry
But you do have a high opinion of yourself. Pete is accurate in all he has posted, you may not like what he says but that does not make it untrue.

Your information is however inaccurate. The pope is infallible, in all matters of faith and morals. He does not have to speak ex cathedra

Quote:
 
882 The Pope, Bishop of Rome and Peter's successor, "is the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful."402 "For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered."403 CCC


The pope does not need the consent of the other bishops they need his.

Quote:
 
883 "The college or body of bishops has no authority unless united with the Roman Pontiff, Peter's successor, as its head." As such, this college has "supreme and full authority over the universal Church; but this power cannot be exercised without the agreement of the Roman Pontiff."404 CCC


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Derekap
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Gerard
Thursday, 5. July 2012, 15:05
Sorry mate, I don't idolise the pope either.
Gerry
Neither do I but I respect him and his authority! Some time ago a Catholic Media reported that Pope Benedict XVI had said that the new (the current) English Translation of Holy Mass would make it more devout. I disagree with this opinion because I've not noticed it - not that the celebrations were, with very few exceptions indeed, undevout.
Edited by Derekap, Thursday, 5. July 2012, 15:55.
Derekap
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Rose of York
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(time=)
Soemthing's gone wrong with my last post, even though I seem to have entered all the correct instructions.
I've asked a Mod to try to correct it.
sorry about that....
Done. Please check it to ensure your words do not appear in the quotes.

At the end of each quoted part you had [ followed by [/pete] instead of [/quote]

Keep the Faith!

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Gerard

Penfold
Thursday, 5. July 2012, 15:43
But you do have a high opinion of yourself.

That makes two of us.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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OsullivanB

CCC
 
891 "The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals....
The ....is as it appears in the CCC. I have hitherto understood "definitive act" to refer to an ex cathedra pronouncement. Is this wrong and if so what is a definitive act? The citation is from Lumen Gentium. It is (I think) intended to affirm
Pastor Aeternus Chapter IV (the Vatican 1 document affirming infallibility
 
...we teach and define that it is a divinely revealed dogma that the Roman Pontiff, when he speaks *ex cathedra*, i.e., when exercising his office as pastor and teacher of all Christians he defines, by his supreme apostolic authority, a doctrine of faith or morals which must be held by the universal Church, enjoys, through the divine assistance, that infallibility promised to him in blessed Peter and with which the divine Redeemer wanted His Church to be endowed in defining doctrine of faith and morals; and therefore that the definitions of the same Roman Pontiff are irreformable of themselves and not from the consent of the Church.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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