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| Priesthood of the Future | |
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| Topic Started: Thursday, 21. June 2012, 09:17 (1,034 Views) | |
| OsullivanB | Saturday, 23. June 2012, 17:14 Post #76 |
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Thank you for that link to a very interesting account. I am inclined to think that only the French could have made something conceptually simple quite so complex and political in execution. "Je suis Marxiste - tendance Groucho" comes to mind. |
| "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer | |
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| Derekap | Saturday, 23. June 2012, 21:15 Post #77 |
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My previous parish (in another city) was founded in 1932 and I can't think of it providing a single priest although the Sanctuary was more than full of altar boys at one era. It did provide two nuns, one a missionary in Nigeria and one joined the local Poor Clares Community. A family who were bombed out of their house came to live in the parish for some years. The eldest son became a barrister and then a Permanent Deacon in the Leeds Diocese long before V2. His younger sister became a nun (probably to escape my clutches). Another point, the oldies (like me) who lived in days when females on the Sanctuary were only tolerated if they were cleaning it and arranging flowers and so therefore experienced only male Altar Servers are inevitably becoming a minority. If there was no male present women were allowed to ring the bell or strike the gong during Holy Mass, but outside the Sanctuary. |
| Derekap | |
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| Rose of York | Saturday, 23. June 2012, 22:13 Post #78 |
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Derek you would be in your late teens then, so most of the altar servers were in your age group. You have established in your posts that you have clear memory, so I take you seriously. I wonder why none of those lads went to seminary in the nineteen thirties. It was nowt to do with the Second Vatican Council!
What was the problem? Women were allowed to clean the church. I had better get back to topic. Derek has demonstrated that banning female altar servers will not lead to an increase in priestly vocations. |
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Keep the Faith! | |
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| Eileenanne | Saturday, 23. June 2012, 22:19 Post #79 |
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It was never the case that a majority - or even a large proportion - of altar servers became priests. What was, and possibly still is the case, is that most priests have been altar boys. Many priests would say, I think, that the experience of serving Mass contributed (significantly) to the development of their vocations. Eileenanne |
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| OsullivanB | Saturday, 23. June 2012, 22:23 Post #80 |
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I think it likely that families where the sons were expected to serve on the altar were and are families who would be likely to foster a vocation. |
| "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer | |
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| Eileenanne | Saturday, 23. June 2012, 22:31 Post #81 |
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That seems highly likely. It would be interesting to know if anyone believes parents are less keen to see their sons become priests than they once were, and if so why? And what is the role of the family in fostering a vocation? Some churches used to have a poster which said "Are you praying for a vocation for someone else's son?" I would have been pleased to see my son enter the priesthood. Would others here who have sons have felt the same? Eileenanne |
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| Rose of York | Saturday, 23. June 2012, 22:39 Post #82 |
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I think it doubtful we will return to the old situation in which priesthood attracted many boys, particularly the Irish ones. Prior to the early fifties it was well nigh impossible for working class people to attend university. Some parents could not even afford to let their children attend grammar school because of the cost of uniforms. I had friends at school who knew they would be needed, to bring a wage home when they were legally allowed to leave school at the age of 15 to help mother look after the younger children. Many mothers yearned to "give a son to the Church" and off their boys went, to junior seminary at the age of 11. Maintenance grants for university and training college students were introduced some time in the early fifties. It took a while for poorer families to get used to the idea of their girls and boys becoming middle class. Eventually the situation changed. A boy who felt called to serving others had choices. If he was intelligent enough he could choose any caring profession. examples being medicine, dentistry, veterinary surgery, physiotherapy, radiography. I read a book, written by a priest, who said some mothers deluded themselves into thinking their reason for encouraging a son to become a priest was for him to serve God, the mother being unaware of her subconscious motive to get her boy into a situation of respect (we were a class conscious nation then), to have at least one boy who did not go down the pit or into the factory and raise a family in poverty in sub standard housing. Any man who went to seminary in Europe in the past fifty years had the brains to go in for medicine, law, business management, architecture or another profession that carries a high salary, and he would also be free to have a wife and family. Clergy of whatever denomination are no longer put on a pedestal by the public. The only motive in the past few decades for going to a seminary in the hope of ordination to the priesthood must have been a genuine calling to serve God and the people of God. The future is a slimmer priesthood, but possibly healthier. I do not think we have as high a proportion leaving because of a woman than we used to have. I could be wrong. |
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Keep the Faith! | |
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| Rose of York | Saturday, 23. June 2012, 22:41 Post #83 |
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Yes. |
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Keep the Faith! | |
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| OsullivanB | Saturday, 23. June 2012, 22:42 Post #84 |
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The seminary (particularly the junior seminary) gave access to excellent education for many who would not otherwise have received it. It was also the gateway to a valued and respected role in society. I do not suggest that these were the only or even the main drivers behind families encouraging a potential vocation. However, families who did not think (and were probably right) that their bright son had any real chance of becoming a doctor, lawyer, academic [insert your favoured ambition here], could realistically invest their hopes in their son becoming a priest. In an ideal world it wouldn't be relevant, but I think a combination of more generous access to good education, greater social mobility (though less than there should be) and the diminution in the perceived status of the priest have made many parents less enthusiastic about having a vocation in the family than was formerly the case. |
| "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer | |
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| OsullivanB | Saturday, 23. June 2012, 22:44 Post #85 |
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I posted the previous post before I saw Rose's. We seem to have similar perceptions. |
| "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer | |
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| Mairtin | Sunday, 24. June 2012, 08:57 Post #86 |
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Interesting up to a point. The history of worker priests as given falls into two phases - pre and post Vatican II. The pre-Vatican II phase seemed to suffer from all sorts of political issues and the Vatican's near-terror of any sort of interaction with Communism and Marxism; add into that mix the French approach to those issues summarised so adroitly by OsB and it is little wonder that the movement more or less imploded. The article gives a lot of details about the post-Vatican II phase in terms of numbers involved and where they were active but to me at least, it doesn't give any real picture of what impact, if any, the movement has had during that phase. |
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| Mairtin | Sunday, 24. June 2012, 09:00 Post #87 |
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I would have been very pleased if I was confident that my son had a genuine vocation but not if he was entering for the wrong reasons as I believe many did in the past including the reasons mentioned by Rose and Bernard. |
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| Gerard | Sunday, 24. June 2012, 11:18 Post #88 |
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No. Lots of reasons. The two biggest being: 1. That I hope my son finds fulfillment in marriage. No other state of life is, I believe, as healthy as a reasonably good marriage (whatever the church says). 2. The institution is clinging to outmoded models of clericalism that are not good for the priests of today. Indeed harmful. But if my son were to choose I would not try to prevent him other than offering the sort of advice above. Gerry |
| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| Rose of York | Sunday, 24. June 2012, 13:29 Post #89 |
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I am also pleased that my son has a secure happy marriage to a charming woman, and between them they are good parents to delightful teenagers who make us all proud of their friendliness, politeness and integrity. Whatever vocation a man follows, should be the one for which he has a true vocation. Priesthood for some. Marriage for most. Single life for some. Do it well and be proud of it. |
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| Penfold | Sunday, 24. June 2012, 20:08 Post #90 |
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An interesting article, I think. http://ncronline.org/news/theology/vatican-ii-priests-still-embrace-councils-model-despite-reversals And another, for those of you who enjoy reading, though this copy of the book is dated 2010 the original paperback was 2001 so the Holy Father being referred to is JPII. http://www.christendom-awake.org/pages/mcgovern/priestident1.htm |
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3:41 PM Jul 11