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| Priesthood of the Future | |
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| Topic Started: Thursday, 21. June 2012, 09:17 (1,036 Views) | |
| Emee | Friday, 22. June 2012, 23:52 Post #46 |
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So why wasn't there such a marvellous take up beforehand then Angus? In fact I need to correct my 1:4 ratio - out of all the altar boys I have ever known, only that one that I mentioned in my 1:4 ratio has become a Priest. I was being far to generous in my 25% percentage - as Rose so eloquently pointed out. Certainly if a quarter of all altar boys became Priests we would indeed not have the shortage we have now. I maintain the altar girls issue is a red herring. We have a couple of altar girls at our Church but it has not dissuaded a whole host of young lads from taking up the role as well. Basically Angus, to me, they seem quite happy to become altar boys. They just don't seem to want to go any further from there. Altar girls are nothing to do with it. Biblical roots? Less pomp and circumstance. Continued use of Deacons. Deaconnesses - an early type of female EMHC. Active male and female involvement in the Church. All given the blessing by St Paul. People being allowed to exercise their individual spriritual gifts. Not a dumbed-down laity but a laity that still had oil in its lamp. Edited by Emee, Friday, 22. June 2012, 23:53.
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| Rose of York | Saturday, 23. June 2012, 00:27 Post #47 |
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This is a photograph taken at a torchlight procession in the fifties. It is too large for the forum, so I give a link. http://stmarybatley.co.uk/Images/proc%20oval.jpg That was my parish. I attended the processions. Note that the photograph shows the very young servers and a few grown men. Behind them there were dozens more servers. A picture in the parish history shows one year's group of young servers under training - total 11. A list of men from that parish, ordained to the priesthood, and serving in the Leeds diocese in 2003, lists seven, born between 1946 and 1972. It claims to have the highest record in the diocese. If altar service produced priests, I would expect an average of ten new altar boys a year, to produce more than six ordinands in twenty four years. One went to seminary before Vatican II, one during the Council and five after it. |
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| Angus Toanimo | Saturday, 23. June 2012, 01:14 Post #48 |
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Interesting article on the matter, from Fr Z [with his usual fisking], who refers to William Oddie's piece in the Catholic Herald that I already linked to, above: At the end of the article, he has a poll:
In a related poll, WDTPRS asked:
As an afterthought to that poll, Fr Zuhlsdorf conducted another poll, this time asking the same question but with the respondents voting yes or no and whether they were male or female voters:
Ladies, just because you refuse to believe that serviettes are partly responsible for the decline in vocations to the priesthood it doesn't mean it isn't true. Many, far more learned than you or I, believe it to be so. |
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| OsullivanB | Saturday, 23. June 2012, 01:41 Post #49 |
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Perhaps the people who choose to read Fr Z's WDTPRS blog on the whole tend to agree with his point of view because that's why they choose to read his blog. I don't think his poll tells us much other than that. (What is fisking? It sounds as if it ought to be a banned word.) |
| "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer | |
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| Rose of York | Saturday, 23. June 2012, 01:44 Post #50 |
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Presumably "many" includes Fr Z? He has his fans, I ignore his polls because he appeals to a certain section of the Catholic population. I only look at his blog when there is a link to it, on this forum. He is too aggressive, vulgar and sarcastic for my taste in priests in particular and men in general. Knowledge and understanding don't always go hand in hand with wisdom. |
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Keep the Faith! | |
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| Angus Toanimo | Saturday, 23. June 2012, 01:54 Post #51 |
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Bill Oddie's poll (well, the poll taken from Catholic Answers)?:
There's no escaping the fact that it doesn't matter who conducts such a poll, on whatever site, regardless of the view of the owner(s), the majority polled shows that girl altar servers "don't help vocations to the priesthood", that the Holy Father should "reverse the interpretation of the 1983 Code which allowed for female service at the altar" and that "an all-male sanctuary fosters vocations to the priesthood". (Fr is king?) |
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| Rose of York | Saturday, 23. June 2012, 02:01 Post #52 |
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Bill Oddie's poll (well, the poll taken from Catholic Answers)?: The poll does not ask whether girl servers hinder vocations to the priesthood. Polls are not infallible. On this forum we have had plenty of married men who were altar servers before girl servers were allowed. I wonder what caused that? |
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| Angus Toanimo | Saturday, 23. June 2012, 02:24 Post #53 |
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Women Assisting at Mass Pope Gelasius in his ninth letter (chap. 26) to the bishops of Lucania condemned the evil practice which had been introduced of women serving the priest at the celebration of Mass. Since this abuse had spread to the Greeks, Innocent IV strictly forbade it in his letter to the bishop of Tusculum: "Women should not dare to serve at the altar; they should be altogether refused this ministry." We too have forbidden this practice in the same words in Our oft-repeated constitution Etsi Pastoralis, sect. 6, no. 21. Encyclical of Pope Benedict XIV promulgated on July 26, 1755 7. In conformity with norms traditional in the Church, women (single, married, religious), whether in churches, homes, convents, schools, or institutions for women, are barred from serving the priest at the altar. Liturgicae Instaurationes - September 5, 1970 18. There are, of course, various roles that women can perform in the liturgical assembly: these include reading the Word of God and proclaiming the intentions of the Prayer of the Faithful. Women are not, however, permitted to act as altar servers.(27) Inaestimabile Donum -Approved and Confirmed by His Holiness Pope John Paul II April 17, 1980 Well, what have we here? An abuse, a novelty, an unlawful use of female servers prior to the Letter of 1994 that finally permitted bishops to give permission to their priests to allow females to serve at Mass. As with Communion in the Hand - another post-Conciliar abuse - it seems that if an abuse is widespread enough it will eventually be permitted. Female Altar Servers - forbidden in the Catholic Church from the pontificate of Pope Gelasius (492-496 AD) up until 1994 AD. Now, this priest isn't someone I normally would link to, but here's Fr Dwight Longenecker - an excerpt:
Emphasis mine. Girl Altar Servers?
Well I am one of them. I would've loved to been a priest but I doubt any English bishop would have tolerated me. Look what they did to Fr Mark Lawler. Not only that, I doubt the bishop ordaining me would have been happy with my interjection of the Oath against Modernism during the proceedings or the fact that I'd probably restore the sanctuary in the Church I was allocated to, to what it should be, and I think the parishioners would have been miffed at the Mass being celebrated ad orientem and according to the rubrics of the 1962 Missale Romanum. And I don't think the ladies would have been happy being confined to flower arranging, keeping the Church or the presbytery clean and tidy. To be fair, I'd grant them a concession and have a visiting priest offer Mass in the Ordinary Form for those who wanted it, provided it didn't cause division. |
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| Penfold | Saturday, 23. June 2012, 07:37 Post #54 |
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I observed that altar boys declined when girls stepped forward however some 20 years on I do not think that the gender of altar servers is no longer an issue, with boys and girls coming forward in equal numbers. I have no evidence, statistical or otherwise, but I have a hunch that several boys and girls who met as altar servers are now happily married couples who have grown up together with a better understanding and love for the church than perhaps was the case before. Certainly I am of the opinion that if catholic lads are to marry catholic lasses the more wholesome places were we can encourage them to meet and get to know each other the better. However we slip away from the thread which does raise an interesting question about the priesthood of the future. In France there has been a resurgence of vocations in recent years with seminaries thriving which has once been in decline, the reason is nothing to do with Vat II but is in part due to a backlash against the rising tide of Islam and a resurgence in French Nationalism. There is no shortage of priests in many Eastern European Countries emerging from the yoke of soviet oppression. In England their is evidence that the tide is slowly turning, The numbers entering seminaries has increased, slightly, and the average age is now heading back below 40. It is generally agreed that few priests will emerge fresh from school as was once the case, this is in part a deliberate policy for the minimum age of ordination was raised to 25 in the 1983 code and many diocese activly encourage young men to go to University or gain a trade before coming to seminary. Thus more and more the priests of the future will emerge for the ranks of those who have another career but their vocation may always have been drawing them to the priesthood. It is also clear that in this process plus improved selection procedures for seminaries generally, the chances of a man completing seminary training have increased. In the days before Vat II over half the boys who started in seminaries left during training and far to many priests fell away with in only a few years of ordination. As Fr Joseph Ratzinger predicted the new way is leaner but it is healthier and I do not think that reversing Vat II or any of Angus' suggestions will improve Vocations to the priesthood. Popular demand may force a rethinking of the rules on celibacy, I think that that too will be a mistake but then I am not a priest of the future I am a priest of the present and am fed up of the priests of the past who cling to the old failed formulas and pray I never become one. Priesthood has to be restored to its proper place in the community, not on top not below but walking alongside all pilgrims on the way of Christ. Edited by Penfold, Saturday, 23. June 2012, 08:40.
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| Penfold | Saturday, 23. June 2012, 07:42 Post #55 |
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The hair styles and trousers of the altar servers would suggest the 1970s rather than 50s but then Yorkshire may well have been setting the fashions. |
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| Penfold | Saturday, 23. June 2012, 08:01 Post #56 |
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In short no bishop would be willing to ordain someone who would immediately break one of the three promises made to him, OBEDIENCE. It is a great mystery to me, and something others have also noted, but for all the rants and cries of traditionalists for the "Good Old Days" before Vat II the one thing they are silent on is the eternal law, obedience to Peter. Benedict XVI is Peter and what he commands is as binding upon the living church of today as the words of Peter were in the Generation of the 16 century, Peter who spoke in the 9th century and Peter who spoke in the 1st For Peter is the Rock upon which Christ Built his Church and Angus I do not know where you are standing but if you deny Peter then you deny Christ. We live, the Church lives for Christ lives among us, I do not like all that occurs, I do not understand many things but I believe I live in a living church not the carcass of an old man's vanity, which is what I consider SSPX to be. Lefebvre is dead Peter is alive. But much more important and much more wonderful Surrexit Christus!!! Edited by Penfold, Saturday, 23. June 2012, 08:18.
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| Mairtin | Saturday, 23. June 2012, 08:52 Post #57 |
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Penfold, is there anything in Church teaching that would prevent the Church from deciding to give deacons the power/authority (I'm not sure of the right word) to say Mass? |
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| Penfold | Saturday, 23. June 2012, 09:22 Post #58 |
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Saying mass, offering the sacrifice on the altar is the defining action of a Priest, it is what makes a priest a priest. If Deacons are to offer the sacrifice of the mass then they must be ordained to the priesthood. It is very simple. A deacon is ordained to proclaim the Gospel, to teach and minister to the poor, it is a wonderful ministry. I wish people would stop regarding them as "Almost Priests". I think it would be good if people learned to appreciate deacons and the wonderful gifts they can bring rather than trying asking for them to be priests. If you want to argue for married priests that is fine, but don't deny the richness of the diaconate ministry trying to accessorize it so that it is more like the priesthood. |
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| Penfold | Saturday, 23. June 2012, 09:26 Post #59 |
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The simple word you are looking for is Ordination and yes deacons can be ordained to the priesthood if they meet the necessary criteria for priesthood, marriage is currently one of the obstacles contentment with their dual calling to the vocation to remain married and serve as a deacon might be a stronger one. |
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| OsullivanB | Saturday, 23. June 2012, 09:49 Post #60 |
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ZE12062208 - 2012-06-22 Permalink: http://www.zenit.org/article-35068?l=english VOCATIONS ON THE RISE IN ENGLAND AND WALES Prayer Campaign Coincides With 'Dramatic Increase' in Number of Seminarians LONDON, JUNE 22, 2012 (Zenit.org).- It is expected that 38 men will be ordained for the priesthood in England and Wales in 2013, nearly double the number of ordinands in 2011, when 20 were ordained. The Catholic Herald reported the projections, noting that the number of seminarians in the Archdiocese of Southwark alone (26) has more than doubled since 2005, when it had only 10. The Southwark Vocations website states that a “campaign of prayer for vocations has coincided with a dramatic increase in the number of men coming forward as potential candidates for the priesthood." The vocations director for the archdiocese spoke of distributing prayer cards for the rosary and encouraging each parish to hold Holy Hours of prayer, the Catholic Herald reported. Father Stephen Langridge was appointed full-time director of vocations for the archdiocese earlier this month -- the first time in 30 years that this has been a full-time post. |
| "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer | |
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3:41 PM Jul 11