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Getting To The Truth
Topic Started: Thursday, 21. June 2012, 08:56 (277 Views)
Mairtin
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Quote:
 
There is much teaching and wisdom in the Church to guide us. For example:

Does what is said conform to church teaching?
Does it point towards God or away from God?
Does it lead us to God or away from God?
Does it produce good fruit?

I hope Gerry doesn’t mind me taking that point slightly out of context from another thread but it raises a general issue which I think warrants its own thread.

Hans Küng and Richard Williamson have both dedicated their lives to Christ’s service, they both spent years in seminary, they know Church teaching inside out and are far more familiar with scripture than anyone on this forum with the possible exceptions of Penfold and Deacon Robert.

Neither of them is a lone voice – Küng became one of the most highly regarded theologians in the Church and notwithstanding the removal of his teaching authority, he remains a priest in good standing and still has a large following; Williamson was regarded so highly by his peers that he was appointed bishop and despite the furore over his views in recent years, remains bishop and, like Küng, has a very strong following.

If men with the intellect, training and religious dedication that these two have can end up poles apart on what Church teaching means and how it should be interpreted, what chance have we laity of getting it right?
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Eileenanne

Good question and the answer is precious little if we try to work it out for ourselves, so we stick with the Pope. Theologians do not have teaching authority and the assurance of guidance by the Holy Spirit, the Pope does.

Eileenanne
Edited by Eileenanne, Thursday, 21. June 2012, 09:10.
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tomais

They are human beings; learning can induce an arrogance when disagreement appears.
re D Hume and emotions.
Think of all the diversities in beliefs-many / most begun by " intellectuals"
Think of many postings here.
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Gerard

Might both men be right?

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Mairtin
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Gerard
Thursday, 21. June 2012, 12:56
Might both men be right?
That's my own thinking. from Mark 9:

"39 But Jesus said, "Do not forbid him; for no one who does a mighty work in my name will be able soon after to speak evil of me. 40 For he that is not against us is for us. 41* For truly, I say to you, whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because you bear the name of Christ, will by no means lose his reward."

Both these men are "for Christ".
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Eileenanne

Gerard
Thursday, 21. June 2012, 12:56
Might both men be right?

Gerry
Only insofar as they are in harmony with the revealed Truth as taught by the Church Jesus founded.

Quote:
 
Matthew 12:30
He who is not for me is against me.


Eileenanne
Edited by Eileenanne, Thursday, 21. June 2012, 15:16.
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OsullivanB

Jesus at Mark 9:40
 
Anyone who is not against us is for us.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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Eileenanne

I wonder which of those Jesus actually said.

Eileenanne
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OsullivanB

When it comes to the Gospels, I think we're supposed to think it's all good. Anyhow, Mark is generally thought to be the first Gospel of the four canonical ones, and to be one of the major sources for Matthew and Luke. Some believe that Mark's source was Peter the Apostle.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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Deleted User
Deleted User

Eileenanne, I know I have hammered this example to death now on several threads but I stuck with various Popes' teaching on Limbo all through school and adult life then all of a sudden along comes this Pope who has to all intents and purposes abolished this teaching . So there are no certainties in theology and Popes vary in their approach as much as do Fr Kung and Bishop Williamson.

In reality, I don't think it is possible to get to one certain unshakeable truth in this field and we can only listen to the views of learned men and make up our own mind. To my way of thinking, God isn't really into theology anyway

John
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Mairtin
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Eileenanne
Thursday, 21. June 2012, 09:10
Good question and the answer is precious little if we try to work it out for ourselves, so we stick with the Pope. Theologians do not have teaching authority and the assurance of guidance by the Holy Spirit, the Pope does.
Our Church does not teach that the Pope is in fallible in everything he decides or has the guidance of the Holy Spirit in everything he does, she actually states the opposite of that.
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Eileenanne

Mairtin
Saturday, 23. June 2012, 08:44
Eileenanne
Thursday, 21. June 2012, 09:10
Good question and the answer is precious little if we try to work it out for ourselves, so we stick with the Pope. Theologians do not have teaching authority and the assurance of guidance by the Holy Spirit, the Pope does.
Our Church does not teach that the Pope is in fallible in everything he decides or has the guidance of the Holy Spirit in everything he does, she actually states the opposite of that.
In matters of what is TRUTH the Pope is infallible. Faith and morals are his remit alone.

Eileenanne
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Gerard

Eileenanne
Saturday, 23. June 2012, 09:48
In matters of what is TRUTH the Pope is infallible. Faith and morals are his remit alone.

Eileenanne

Balderdash.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Eileenanne

Gerard
Saturday, 23. June 2012, 20:35
Eileenanne
Saturday, 23. June 2012, 09:48
In matters of what is TRUTH the Pope is infallible. Faith and morals are his remit alone.

Eileenanne

Balderdash.

Gerry
Catholic teaching.

Eileenanne
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OsullivanB

CCC
 
889 In order to preserve the Church in the purity of the faith handed on by the apostles, Christ who is the Truth willed to confer on her a share in his own infallibility. By a "supernatural sense of faith" the People of God, under the guidance of the Church's living Magisterium, "unfailingly adheres to this faith."417

890 The mission of the Magisterium is linked to the definitive nature of the covenant established by God with his people in Christ. It is this Magisterium's task to preserve God's people from deviations and defections and to guarantee them the objective possibility of professing the true faith without error. Thus, the pastoral duty of the Magisterium is aimed at seeing to it that the People of God abides in the truth that liberates. To fulfill this service, Christ endowed the Church's shepherds with the charism of infallibility in matters of faith and morals. the exercise of this charism takes several forms:

891 "The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals.... the infallibility promised to the Church is also present in the body of bishops when, together with Peter's successor, they exercise the supreme Magisterium," above all in an Ecumenical Council.418 When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine "for belief as being divinely revealed,"419 and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions "must be adhered to with the obedience of faith."420 This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of divine Revelation itself.421

892 Divine assistance is also given to the successors of the apostles, teaching in communion with the successor of Peter, and, in a particular way, to the bishop of Rome, pastor of the whole Church, when, without arriving at an infallible definition and without pronouncing in a "definitive manner," they propose in the exercise of the ordinary Magisterium a teaching that leads to better understanding of Revelation in matters of faith and morals. To this ordinary teaching the faithful "are to adhere to it with religious assent"422 which, though distinct from the assent of faith, is nonetheless an extension of it.

Catholic teaching
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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