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The church in the digital age
Topic Started: Monday, 18. June 2012, 08:53 (266 Views)
Penfold
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Oddly I was listening to a programme on the radio the other morning and the BBC presenter asked a leading business man if he was concerned about his main rival. The business man replied, "No, I am concerned with selling... (his product)" It went on but the gist of the message from the businessman was that it is bad business to focus on the opposition and get into a product war, the way to a successful business is to ensure your own product is the best it can be and to look at ways of meeting customer needs in future and adapt the product as required. He gave the example of Kodak as a company that became obsessed with being the brand leader and showing how it was better in its speciality than the opposition and failed to notice the market had moved on and their product, while the best in the world, was no longer the product people wanted to buy because the digital age had replaced wet film technology.
Perhaps some of you on this forum can suggest what the digital equivalent is to the wet film that is currently being pedalled by Rome, I suspect it is sitting neatly wrapped up in unread copies of Conciliar Documents from Vat II, but would be interested to hear what others think.

I asked this question on another thread and rather than leading that thread astray I have opened a new one.
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Mairtin
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Whether or not we like it, perceived image is an important part of selling, at least in attracting people to initially consider a product.

I was watching the closing ceremony of the 2012 Eucharistic Congress in Dublin yesterday and the Pope’s video address. I couldn’t help wondering what image of our church is presented to the wider world by a clearly frail old man; I don’t think that there is any problem with him as a spiritual leader but how on earth can we persuade the world that it makes sense for a man of his age to be absolutely responsible for managing the largest organisation on earth and have monarchic power to make decisions that directly impact on the daily lives of something like one in four of the world’s entire population?

Look around at other successful organisations today and you will see that they are mostly run by people in their 30s and 40s - old enough to have gone through the university of life but young enough to know what turns society on and with the verve and energy to provide it. Why does our Church require leaders to be in their 60s, 70s and 80s?
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Penfold
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Mairtin
Monday, 18. June 2012, 08:55
Whether or not we like it, perceived image is an important part of selling, at least in attracting people to initially consider a product.

I was watching the closing ceremony of the 2012 Eucharistic Congress in Dublin yesterday and the Pope’s video address. I couldn’t help wondering what image of our church is presented to the wider world by a clearly frail old man; I don’t think that there is any problem with him as a spiritual leader but how on earth can we persuade the world that it makes sense for a man of his age to be absolutely responsible for managing the largest organisation on earth and have monarchic power to make decisions that directly impact on the daily lives of something like one in four of the world’s entire population?

Look around at other successful organisations today and you will see that they are mostly run by people in their 30s and 40s - old enough to have gone through the university of life but young enough to know what turns society on and with the verve and energy to provide it. Why does our Church require leaders to be in their 60s, 70s and 80s?
Brand image is important but I think Mairtin you are falling into the Kodak trap, focusing on the product image rather than the product. Also while many companies present a youthful exterior, daddy still runs the firm. It is also untrue that the Vatican is run by old men, there are quite a few old women in there too :yahoo:
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Penfold
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Double posted by mistake :nono:
Edited by Penfold, Monday, 18. June 2012, 09:18.
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Penfold
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Apologies for the above moment of flippancy, you are quite right Mairtin, if the church is perceived to be run by a bunch of old fogies then it will be very hard to sell the product no matter how good it is.
What I really asking is are we selling the right product. As Anne-Marie asked on another thread, are we talking to God or are we selling a man made version of the gospel. How authentic is are product, is it the right product for the modern world and if not what should be be selling. In essence I t hinkwe have the best wet film on the market but have we like Kodak have failed to notice that the rest of the world has gone digital and fallen into a position were no mater how well we re-brand, we no longer have the product people need? Sorry a bit depressing for a Monday morning.
Edited by Penfold, Monday, 18. June 2012, 09:35.
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Mairtin
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Penfold
Monday, 18. June 2012, 09:12
Brand image is important but I think Mairtin you are falling into the Kodak trap, focusing on the product image rather than the product. Also while many companies present a youthful exterior, daddy still runs the firm. It is also untrue that the Vatican is run by old men, there are quite a few old women in there too :yahoo:
No, you are confusing brand image and product, the two are closely intertwined but still distinct; Kodak actually had a tremendous brand image, it was the actual product that let them down.

Apple is a good comparison; they always had a good brand image but their actual products were seen as largely out of date and irrelevant; Steve Jobs came back into the business and refurbished their product line, building on the brand image for qulaity and dependability. There is really nothing particularly superior about the Apple products - iPhone, iPad, iTunes, etc. - compared to many competing products - but Jobs successfully made them the "must have" product for an entire generation.

Apple reminds me of our Church is some ways, I think that despite the recent tarnishing of her image, there is still a great affection out there for her, it's just that she is seen as the doddery old aunt whose eccentricities have to be tolerated; I would like to see our next pope as a Steve Jobs type who can skillfully turn that doddery old aunt back into an attractive young maiden.

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Also while many companies present a youthful exterior, daddy still runs the firm.

Remind me again who Steve Jobs's father was. :grin:
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Mairtin
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Penfold
Monday, 18. June 2012, 09:16
Apologies for the above moment of flippancy, you are quite right Mairtin, if the church is perceived to be run by a bunch of old fogies then it will be very hard to sell the product no matter how good it is.
No problem - my reply overlapped your remarks.
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Penfold
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Mairtin
Monday, 18. June 2012, 09:35
Penfold
Monday, 18. June 2012, 09:16
Apologies for the above moment of flippancy, you are quite right Mairtin, if the church is perceived to be run by a bunch of old fogies then it will be very hard to sell the product no matter how good it is.
No problem - my reply overlapped your remarks.
we over lapped again as I edited my earlier post. I have to head out to do some real work now but like your comparison with apple. I shall find a moment to think about that later in the day. Thanks
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Anne-Marie

Mairtin
Monday, 18. June 2012, 08:55
Why does our Church require leaders to be in their 60s, 70s and 80s?
So that if they wreek havoc, they won't be doing it for long!
Anne-Marie
FIAT VOLUNTAS DEI
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Mairtin
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Penfold
Monday, 18. June 2012, 09:16
What I really asking is are we selling the right product. As Anne-Marie asked on another thread, are we talking to God or are we selling a man made version of the gospel. How authentic is are product, is it the right product for the modern world and if not what should be be selling. In essence I t hinkwe have the best wet film on the market but have we like Kodak have failed to notice that the rest of the world has gone digital and fallen into a position were no mater how well we re-brand, we no longer have the product people need?
Kodak made the elementary mistake of failing to identify their real product; that product was image reproduction, not wet film which was just a mechanism for delivering that product. The classic text book example for this sort of elementary misthinking is carriage manufacturers at the end of the 19th century when the automobile appeared on the scene; those who saw themselves as suppliers of horse drawn carriages were doomed to extinction, those who who saw themselves as suppliers of transport had every chance of a prosperous future.

I think we have made the same mistake in our Church, our product is not Vatican Council documents, or canon law, or Papal Encyclicals, or Latin Masses or vernacular Masses, or fancy vestments or "stripped down" ceremonies - our product is the Good News and that product is just as good and as relevant now as it was 2000 years ago; our focus just has to be on that Good News and less hang ups about the particular delivery mechanisms we have on offer at any specific point in time.

This, by the way, is not a call to dump everything we have been doing, just as Steve Jobs did not dump everything in Apple - far from it, throwing the baby out with the bathwater is one of the surest ways to kill off any organisation. In some ways I think am echoing what Pope Benedict was talking about when he referred to the "hermeneutic of continuity" - a truly dreadful choice of language but an absolutely vital principle.

Quote:
 
Sorry a bit depressing for a Monday morning.

No - it's exactly the sort of questioning that goes on every Monday morning in most successful organisations.; it's what keeps them successful.
Edited by Mairtin, Monday, 18. June 2012, 10:06.
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Mairtin
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Anne-Marie
Monday, 18. June 2012, 09:43
Mairtin
Monday, 18. June 2012, 08:55
Why does our Church require leaders to be in their 60s, 70s and 80s?
So that if they wreek havoc, they won't be doing it for long!
At the risk of diverting the thread slightly, I have been deeply involved in the care of a frail old lady for the last few years and one of the things I have learnt is how easy it can be to manipulate an old person*. I get an uneasy feeling of Pope Benedict being manipulated by a group around him.

(* For the best of good reasons in our case, I should add. For example, the lady suffers from dementia, she regularly forgets that her husband died 11 years ago and asks where he is. Rather than reminding her that he is dead, which then seems to her to have just occurred and puts her into a state of extreme distress which can last several hours , it is simpler and kinder to tell her he has gone out for a little while; that contents her and the conversation is forgotten in less than 5 minutes.)
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Gerard

Penfold
Monday, 18. June 2012, 08:53
Perhaps some of you on this forum can suggest what the digital equivalent is to the wet film that is currently being pedalled by Rome,


I suspect it is sitting neatly wrapped up in unread copies of Conciliar Documents from Vat II, but would be interested to hear what others think.


Pentecostalism.

Starting from 0% of all Christians in 1906 it grew to 6% by 1970 and 27% by 1997. This is exponential growth. The biggest growth the christian church has ever seen. It is already bigger than classical protestantism and, if exponential growth continues, may soon overtake denominational catholics.
http://hirr.hartsem.edu/research/quick_question32.html


It is "sitting neatly wrapped up" in L.G. particularly paragraph 12.

Gerry
Edited by Gerard, Monday, 18. June 2012, 13:53.
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Rose of York
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The Catholic digital image needs to be Christ, not the Pope. Mention Catholicism, most people will respond by praising the Pope or stating their disagreements with him.

I would have no problem with a photograph of a bishop on a diocesan website, if it was on the page about him. The front page should have images depicting Christanity
Keep the Faith!

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tomais

A quick glance through these posts and I see that marketing and digital age appear to come predominantly-marketing.
marketing has always beenone of the mainChristian purposes.
Digital age is the now with the use of a marketing and informative technique.

Digitalisation,( good word) may mean and indeed is used and misused; think that other word-reality!
The Church has no visible grasp of digitalisation at all.Why? May be due to an 2agism" question.
A parallel? Yes when someone discovered movable print! Yes the spoken word had a competiver.
The use of digital techniques will and do change the neuroscientific human structures;.see of this is implicit in much military circles.
Brown University in the U S of A provides a usefull background-especially of the young.
As to why the vatican id coick a block of the elderlies is that there the medical supports keep them on the go longer than elsewhere.
The digital age is the -now.
And we are all at it,albeit at an elementary stage-look at the screen infron of you!
New Church documents at a - kindle-near you-with its in built vocal respnce unit coupled into that chip just behind you right ear!
TRUEISM
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Penfold
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Mairtin
Monday, 18. June 2012, 08:55
Look around at other successful organisations today and you will see that they are mostly run by people in their 30s and 40s - old enough to have gone through the university of life but young enough to know what turns society on and with the verve and energy to provide it. Why does our Church require leaders to be in their 60s, 70s and 80s?
On the other hand remember the "YUPPIES" of Thatchers Britain, bright young people who played the stock market, the Futures Markets, Currency Exchange and Hedge funds, they are now in their late forties and fifties, many with fortunes made and lost and the worlds economies in a mess. The current cabinet and a high proportion of the Shadow Cabinet are in their 40s and the country is not in very good shape, age is not the problem, the problem is the quality of the people in various posts. As for old people being easily led, not all old people are senile or demented, there are a fair number of over 60s on this forum whose minds are sharp and have no problem grasping the essence of issues of importance. Ageism should not prevent people from doing a job if they are capable.
I agree that with life expectancy increasing it might be prudent to re-examine the retirement age of the Pope and cardinals, or what I would think a better plan, place a limit upon a persons term of office. For example cardinals should loose their voting rites at 75 and Popes retire at the age of 80 or after 15 years in post which ever comes first. This will ensure a degree of fresh minds and ideas being allowed to come through the system. I also have in the past advocated that Parish Priests should step down at the age of 65 while still reasonably fit and able to cope with a major lifestyle adjustment and adopt a support role as an assistant priest, thus we would perhaps retain some priests and their expertise for longer because they would not be burnt out.
What has been raised on other threads and discussed before which is relevant here is the idea of greater openness in the selection process at all levels of ministry, both lay and clerical.
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