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| Is the Church a club with rules you accept or leave? | |
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| Topic Started: Tuesday, 12. June 2012, 20:19 (438 Views) | |
| Angus Toanimo | Wednesday, 13. June 2012, 01:04 Post #16 |
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It's one of the Four Marks of the Church. |
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| Rose of York | Wednesday, 13. June 2012, 01:18 Post #17 |
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If Apostolic succession is not important any one of us could set ourselves, or any willing person up as a priest or deacon. |
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Keep the Faith! | |
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| Angus Toanimo | Wednesday, 13. June 2012, 01:21 Post #18 |
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...and Pope Leo XIII wouldn't have bothered issuing Apostolicae Curae. |
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| Rose of York | Wednesday, 13. June 2012, 01:25 Post #19 |
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Come on Angus, examine your conscience. Confess! Repent! Mend your ways! You got yourself a certificate or Ordination, online. We both did it one evening, years ago.
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Keep the Faith! | |
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| Mairtin | Wednesday, 13. June 2012, 07:28 Post #20 |
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Probably something similar to the percentage who ever think about it or care about it to any great extent. |
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| valleyboy | Wednesday, 13. June 2012, 07:49 Post #21 |
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A protestant would claim apostolic succession ended when the church became a tax gathering, relic selling, capital punishment providing, political organisation rather than a sanctuary of faith. The Vatican of today for all its faults, is a very different organisation to the one that waged wars and sought political control of sovereign states, largely due to having its wings clipped by protestantism. As for unity, there are Christian organisations with whom our church differs so little that we're splitting theological hairs by not reaching out, and others that have fundamental differences. Bridges won't be built in my lifetime but come they certainly will. The safeguard against error is ultimately conscience. Exercise that fully, engage the intellect and the heart, and the atrocities committed by the church would never have happened and it would still be united. The scriptures are an open enough text that a theologist can make them mean virtually anything, conscience and prayer are a more reliable tool than donating critical faculties to someone else to do the thinking for us. Edited by valleyboy, Wednesday, 13. June 2012, 08:44.
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| Liberal, ecumenical, universal and it's my church too. | |
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| Gerard | Wednesday, 13. June 2012, 09:03 Post #22 |
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Gerry |
| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| Gerard | Wednesday, 13. June 2012, 09:04 Post #23 |
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Also excellent. I think the use of the word transubstantiation is well on the way to extinction. Gerry |
| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| Gerard | Wednesday, 13. June 2012, 09:07 Post #24 |
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You mean like St Paul ? Gerry |
| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| valleyboy | Wednesday, 13. June 2012, 09:15 Post #25 |
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It may be a personal observation, but this forum seems to have an excess of capital letters used in normal communication. The tradition is for names ("Christ") and the deity second person ("His") but it feels that the reader is being bludgeoned with opinion dressed in sanctimonious syntax at times. Is there any necessity for His Holy Name The Blessed Bleeding Lamb (or whatever) in normal rhetoric? It seems very ostentatious. |
| Liberal, ecumenical, universal and it's my church too. | |
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| tomais | Wednesday, 13. June 2012, 09:18 Post #26 |
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Has all of this not been thrashed out many many many years ago and times before? That's the Transubstantiation element. This is still part of the New College syllabus. Club? WEll- yes or no! Come on folks define a club! That is not something that has the disputational history as Trans_____. Mind you the initial membership fee is not very much; although from a Scottish( west of the country point of view ) Jews can have difficulty joining. As a wee joke Define L O L in club membership terms. |
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| Gerard | Wednesday, 13. June 2012, 09:18 Post #27 |
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It is quite interesting that miracles were mentioned early on in the discussion. I was hesitant to start this post but the mention of miracles by someone else makes it easier. Here we are dealing with a miracle that cannot be verified by physics, psychology or anything else. In this scientific age this not easy to accept. It is easier to accept if one has seen miracles in other aspects of one's christian walk. And we should have (cf e.g. Acts). But most have not. So where should the teaching start? Yet more banging on about transubstantiation or begin to teach about expectant faith today so that miracles take their rightful place in the church once again? My Pentecostal friend believes the bread becomes literally the body of the Lord. But signs and wonders are almost a daily occurrence for him. Gerry Edited by Gerard, Wednesday, 13. June 2012, 10:25.
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| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| garfield | Wednesday, 13. June 2012, 09:19 Post #28 |
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I have always regarded the Church as a family, as summed up by Penfold here, I worry that the attitude that you have to completely believe in absolutely every single thing the 'Church' teaches or get out means there will be hardly anyone left in it. There has to be room for uncertainty, enquiry and growth while remaining within the family which loves you and supports you. The issue of transubstantiation is a difficult one to get your head round, it requires a more philosophical approach that people are prepared to take (especially people in newspapers where the emphasis is on facts and a literal interpretation of words) you have to look at what we mean by the words 'substance' and 'real' and 'presence'. If you were to ask me as a quick question 'Does the bread and wine change into flesh and blood?' and ask for a one word answer I'd probably say no. |
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| Gerard | Wednesday, 13. June 2012, 09:19 Post #29 |
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This is a discussion forum not an English grammar exam. Gerry |
| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| valleyboy | Wednesday, 13. June 2012, 09:26 Post #30 |
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Absolutely. The point I'm making is that capitals are used to back up an opinion by making it sound somehow more reverential, factual and spiritually inspired than the next person's opinion. It doesn't ring true in the context of a discussion forum. |
| Liberal, ecumenical, universal and it's my church too. | |
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3:41 PM Jul 11