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Is the Church a club with rules you accept or leave?
Topic Started: Tuesday, 12. June 2012, 20:19 (438 Views)
Angus Toanimo
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John Sweeney
Wednesday, 13. June 2012, 00:41
From my point of view, born and brought up as a Catholic, I have heard the Apostolic succession thing all of my life but to be absolutely honest I first of all don't see that it is that important and secondly I think the argument for a direct link is quite weak.
It's one of the Four Marks of the Church.

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Rose of York
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If Apostolic succession is not important any one of us could set ourselves, or any willing person up as a priest or deacon.
Keep the Faith!

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Angus Toanimo
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Rose of York
Wednesday, 13. June 2012, 01:18
If Apostolic succession is not important any one of us could set ourselves, or any willing person up as a priest or deacon.
...and Pope Leo XIII wouldn't have bothered issuing Apostolicae Curae.
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Rose of York
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Come on Angus, examine your conscience. Confess! Repent! Mend your ways! You got yourself a certificate or Ordination, online. We both did it one evening, years ago.

:rofl:
Keep the Faith!

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Mairtin
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John Sweeney
Tuesday, 12. June 2012, 23:32
Anyone want to estimate --entirely unscientifically but just for the sake of it--how many regular Sunday communicants in their own parishes would say they believe in the real transubstantiation doctrine?
Probably something similar to the percentage who ever think about it or care about it to any great extent.
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valleyboy

A protestant would claim apostolic succession ended when the church became a tax gathering, relic selling, capital punishment providing, political organisation rather than a sanctuary of faith. The Vatican of today for all its faults, is a very different organisation to the one that waged wars and sought political control of sovereign states, largely due to having its wings clipped by protestantism.

As for unity, there are Christian organisations with whom our church differs so little that we're splitting theological hairs by not reaching out, and others that have fundamental differences. Bridges won't be built in my lifetime but come they certainly will.
The safeguard against error is ultimately conscience. Exercise that fully, engage the intellect and the heart, and the atrocities committed by the church would never have happened and it would still be united. The scriptures are an open enough text that a theologist can make them mean virtually anything, conscience and prayer are a more reliable tool than donating critical faculties to someone else to do the thinking for us.
Edited by valleyboy, Wednesday, 13. June 2012, 08:44.
Liberal, ecumenical, universal and it's my church too.
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Gerard

Penfold
Tuesday, 12. June 2012, 21:50
Every Club has rules and every club has ways of dealing with those who break the rules and refusing membership to those who will not accept the rules. I however regard the church as a family rather than a club and while families have rules you can not opt out so easily and so rules often mature as the members of the family grow. The problem is at the moment the parents are less willing to allow growth, perhaps because some people threw their teddies out of the cot the last time the church allowed a little relaxation of the rules. However no the church is not a club with rules you accept or leave.

:excellent:

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Gerard

OsullivanB
Tuesday, 12. June 2012, 22:28
I am probably wrong, but it seems to me that the essential dogma is the Real Presence, of which transubstantiation is but one account, given by Aquinas relying heavily on thinking of Aristotle, approved by the Council of Trent. It is philosophically highly technical, arguably misconceived and based on principles which are no longer generally thought to be valid by those who think hard about such things. None of which affects the dogma of Real Presence.

Also excellent.
I think the use of the word transubstantiation is well on the way to extinction.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Gerard

Rose of York
Wednesday, 13. June 2012, 01:18
If Apostolic succession is not important any one of us could set ourselves, or any willing person up as a priest or deacon.
You mean like St Paul ?

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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valleyboy

It may be a personal observation, but this forum seems to have an excess of capital letters used in normal communication. The tradition is for names ("Christ") and the deity second person ("His") but it feels that the reader is being bludgeoned with opinion dressed in sanctimonious syntax at times. Is there any necessity for His Holy Name The Blessed Bleeding Lamb (or whatever) in normal rhetoric? It seems very ostentatious.
Liberal, ecumenical, universal and it's my church too.
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tomais

Has all of this not been thrashed out many many many years ago and times before?
That's the Transubstantiation element.
This is still part of the New College syllabus.

Club?
WEll- yes or no!
Come on folks define a club! That is not something that has the disputational history as Trans_____.
Mind you the initial membership fee is not very much; although from a Scottish( west of the country point of view ) Jews can have difficulty joining.
As a wee joke
Define L O L in club membership terms.
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Gerard

Rose of York
Tuesday, 12. June 2012, 21:32
Since when did miracles depend upon physics and psychology?

It is quite interesting that miracles were mentioned early on in the discussion. I was hesitant to start this post but the mention of miracles by someone else makes it easier.

Here we are dealing with a miracle that cannot be verified by physics, psychology or anything else. In this scientific age this not easy to accept. It is easier to accept if one has seen miracles in other aspects of one's christian walk. And we should have (cf e.g. Acts). But most have not. So where should the teaching start? Yet more banging on about transubstantiation or begin to teach about expectant faith today so that miracles take their rightful place in the church once again?

My Pentecostal friend believes the bread becomes literally the body of the Lord. But signs and wonders are almost a daily occurrence for him.

Gerry
Edited by Gerard, Wednesday, 13. June 2012, 10:25.
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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garfield

Penfold
Tuesday, 12. June 2012, 21:50
Every Club has rules and every club has ways of dealing with those who break the rules and refusing membership to those who will not accept the rules. I however regard the church as a family rather than a club and while families have rules you can not opt out so easily and so rules often mature as the members of the family grow. The problem is at the moment the parents are less willing to allow growth, perhaps because some people threw their teddies out of the cot the last time the church allowed a little relaxation of the rules. However no the church is not a club with rules you accept or leave.
I have always regarded the Church as a family, as summed up by Penfold here, I worry that the attitude that you have to completely believe in absolutely every single thing the 'Church' teaches or get out means there will be hardly anyone left in it. There has to be room for uncertainty, enquiry and growth while remaining within the family which loves you and supports you.
The issue of transubstantiation is a difficult one to get your head round, it requires a more philosophical approach that people are prepared to take (especially people in newspapers where the emphasis is on facts and a literal interpretation of words) you have to look at what we mean by the words 'substance' and 'real' and 'presence'. If you were to ask me as a quick question 'Does the bread and wine change into flesh and blood?' and ask for a one word answer I'd probably say no.
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Gerard

valleyboy
Wednesday, 13. June 2012, 09:15
It may be a personal observation, but this forum seems to have an excess of capital letters used in normal communication. The tradition is for names ("Christ") and the deity second person ("His") but it feels that the reader is being bludgeoned with opinion dressed in sanctimonious syntax at times. Is there any necessity for His Holy Name The Blessed Bleeding Lamb (or whatever) in normal rhetoric? It seems very ostentatious.
This is a discussion forum not an English grammar exam.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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valleyboy

Gerard
Wednesday, 13. June 2012, 09:19
valleyboy
Wednesday, 13. June 2012, 09:15
It may be a personal observation, but this forum seems to have an excess of capital letters used in normal communication. The tradition is for names ("Christ") and the deity second person ("His") but it feels that the reader is being bludgeoned with opinion dressed in sanctimonious syntax at times. Is there any necessity for His Holy Name The Blessed Bleeding Lamb (or whatever) in normal rhetoric? It seems very ostentatious.
This is a discussion forum not an English grammar exam.

Gerry
Absolutely. The point I'm making is that capitals are used to back up an opinion by making it sound somehow more reverential, factual and spiritually inspired than the next person's opinion. It doesn't ring true in the context of a discussion forum.
Liberal, ecumenical, universal and it's my church too.
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