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| Is the Church a club with rules you accept or leave? | |
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| Topic Started: Tuesday, 12. June 2012, 20:19 (437 Views) | |
| Angus Toanimo | Tuesday, 12. June 2012, 20:19 Post #1 |
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An excerpt from the article in the Irish Independent:
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| Gerard | Tuesday, 12. June 2012, 20:43 Post #2 |
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Like those rules from V2? Gerry |
| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| Deleted User | Tuesday, 12. June 2012, 20:57 Post #3 |
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I read this poll and although there are encouraging signs for the Church in parts of it, Angus correctly highlights the most striking finding. Of course, there are a few glib responses which people fall back on when faced with findings like this. "Small sample, not representative etc etc" or the Catch 22 one of " if they don't believe in transubstantiation then they are't Catholics in the first place". However, here we have a momentous finding and one that can't be blamed on the present Irish disenchantment with the Church because of criminal priests. In essence, we have 75% of practising Catholics, ie those regularly receiving Communion, who do not believe that they are receiving anything other than a symbol of the Body and Blood of Christ. In other words, the central part of the Faith has been adapted to a position identical with most other Christian churches. This is dynamite. I see a parallel here with the monarchy in the UK. There could not be a referendum on the future of the monarchy because although most would vote in favour the existence of , say, 20 % against, fatally undermines the institution's claims to the affections of the people. Similarly, until now no one has asked practising Catholics their attitude towards the doctrine of transubstantiation because the Church cannot contemplate anything other than a 100 % yes response. Fascinating stuff John |
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| PJD | Tuesday, 12. June 2012, 20:59 Post #4 |
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Primarily down to a lack of faith/belief; secondarily absence of a reasonable theological explanation [given in simple terms]. PJD |
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| valleyboy | Tuesday, 12. June 2012, 21:22 Post #5 |
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It depends what's meant by 'represent'. Speaking literally, the host represents the Body of Christ because a scientific dissection of the wafer would reveal nothing but a wheat based product down to atomic level. So we can be sure it contains no flesh, blood or any other human tissue, unless particles came from the person serving it. The church's position that it is literally the body of Christ operates at another, mystical level, based on an interpretation of scripture with theological explanations. We accept that it is symbolic communion. The thread title "Is the Church a club with rules you accept or leave?" is a different question. I sincerely hope it is not a club, with overtones of coffee mornings and coach trips. As for rules, who would enforce them? Do we say someone who doesn't accept the hagiography of an obscure 9th century martyr is no longer Catholic? In practice worship must contain a variety of interpretations, because it is impossible for the human mind to place its critical faculties on hold and allow someone else to do its thinking for it, and even if it could the nuances of acceptance, rejection and ambivalence could never be transplanted totally. Edited by valleyboy, Tuesday, 12. June 2012, 21:30.
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| Liberal, ecumenical, universal and it's my church too. | |
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| Rose of York | Tuesday, 12. June 2012, 21:32 Post #6 |
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The Irish Independent are not exactly allies of the Catholic Church. We can add to their prejudice the journalist's lack of understanding of the omnipotent nature of God. Since when did miracles depend upon physics and psychology? Transubstantiation gives the communicant a direct line to God. Oh so the dogma of transubstantiation is down to Irish priests making crude assertions that Catholics were eating his body and blood. Funny how dogma of a universal Church has its roots in one small island. What were Catholics in America and Africa learning? It is not the job of a journalist to tell me what my Church should teach, or how to teach. Since when did Truth go stale with age? |
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Keep the Faith! | |
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| Rose of York | Tuesday, 12. June 2012, 21:39 Post #7 |
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What is the definition of a Catholic? Does the term include people who were baptised into the Catholic Church and were not taught the Catholic faith at home or school, and who rarely or never attended any form of Catholic worship. Some people who tick the Religion box on official forms define themselves as Catholic, it being the family label. |
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Keep the Faith! | |
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| Penfold | Tuesday, 12. June 2012, 21:50 Post #8 |
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Every Club has rules and every club has ways of dealing with those who break the rules and refusing membership to those who will not accept the rules. I however regard the church as a family rather than a club and while families have rules you can not opt out so easily and so rules often mature as the members of the family grow. The problem is at the moment the parents are less willing to allow growth, perhaps because some people threw their teddies out of the cot the last time the church allowed a little relaxation of the rules. However no the church is not a club with rules you accept or leave. |
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| OsullivanB | Tuesday, 12. June 2012, 22:28 Post #9 |
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I am probably wrong, but it seems to me that the essential dogma is the Real Presence, of which transubstantiation is but one account, given by Aquinas relying heavily on thinking of Aristotle, approved by the Council of Trent. It is philosophically highly technical, arguably misconceived and based on principles which are no longer generally thought to be valid by those who think hard about such things. None of which affects the dogma of Real Presence. |
| "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer | |
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| valleyboy | Tuesday, 12. June 2012, 22:39 Post #10 |
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I find it impossible to conceive of a God that will condemn us on the basis of whether we literally or symbolically believe in communion. How would we know what the correct response felt like? As the host tastes entirely how a wafer of bread should, there are no triggers to cue our emotion either way. Someone could claim to believe it, and believe they believe it, while having a totally symbolic relationship with the host. |
| Liberal, ecumenical, universal and it's my church too. | |
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| Deleted User | Tuesday, 12. June 2012, 23:11 Post #11 |
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Rose, I am not sure where your quotes are from. Are there two threads here? The poll is from the Irish Times/ Ipsos, so very respectable. Let's not hide behind the " no friend of the Church " figleaf. These results go right to the heart of our beliefs. Bernard rightly points up the nuances around the "Real Presence" teaching but I believe most parishioners believe that one of the major--maybe THE major -difference between us and other Catholic and Protestant churches is that we believe in the literal changing into flesh and blood. That is why we don't allow inter-communion for example. This is one of the very few areas I haven't discussed with Catholic friends and I suspect it is because we are all afraid of the answer and its implications. John |
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| Rose of York | Tuesday, 12. June 2012, 23:21 Post #12 |
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I quoted Angus's opening post, including the link he provided. If you click that you will see the article from which I quoted. |
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Keep the Faith! | |
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| Deleted User | Tuesday, 12. June 2012, 23:32 Post #13 |
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Anyone want to estimate --entirely unscientifically but just for the sake of it--how many regular Sunday communicants in their own parishes would say they believe in the real transubstantiation doctrine? John |
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| Emee | Wednesday, 13. June 2012, 00:09 Post #14 |
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Another difference John is that our Protestant brethren are separated from the See of Peter - since the Reformation. It's not just the Transubstantiation issue that separates us - as I do believe some Anglo Catholics believe in Transubstantiation also. So if it were just the Transubstantiation issue there wouldn't necessarily be so much of a hurdle to surmount. No it's that old Apostolic Succession thing again I'm afraid John and the definitive passing on of valid Orders (I say definitive because in the case of the Old Catholic Bishops passing on Orders there may be validity in certain lines of the CofE Church also, but it is not definite throughout the whole of the CofE). Having been a born again Christian myself and having attended many non Catholic but Christian services I strongly desire Christian unity, but over the years I have realised it isn't as simple as all that... Transubstantiation is only one issue. There are others also. |
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| Deleted User | Wednesday, 13. June 2012, 00:41 Post #15 |
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Thanks Emee very interesting to see from your angle. From my point of view, born and brought up as a Catholic, I have heard the Apostolic succession thing all of my life but to be absolutely honest I first of all don't see that it is that important and secondly I think the argument for a direct link is quite weak. John |
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3:40 PM Jul 11