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Patriotism - is it Christian
Topic Started: Saturday, 9. June 2012, 14:48 (532 Views)
Mairtin
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There's been a lot of patriotism about recently, we had it in Ireland a couple of weeks ago when opponents of the Fiscal Treaty tried to use it to persuade people not to give more control to Europe (with a very thin veneer hiding some particularly virulent anti-German feeling); you had it in the UK last week with the celebrations for the Queen's Jubilee; now we're in for a whole summer of it with Euro2012 followed by the Olympics.

I can't help wondering, though, whether patriotism is really compatible with the Christian principle that everyone in the world is our brother or sister and that we should love everybody with an equal intensity.
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OsullivanB

Jesus repeatedly told us to love God and to love each other, perhaps particularly our neighbours and our enemies i.e. those with whom we actually have some kind of relationship (question does this mean all our fellow-citizens rather than all humankind). He never told us to love anything else. He specifically warned us against loving mammon i.e. material wealth and greed. I think many emotions and stances are proper in relation to one's country. I rather doubt that it is Christian to love it, certainly in the sense of unconditional love, and especially in a time when Western countries seems obsessed with materiality and treats and speaks of its citizens and treats them more often as economic units than as people.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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Rose of York
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Mairtin
Saturday, 9. June 2012, 14:48
There's been a lot of patriotism about recently, we had it in Ireland a couple of weeks ago when opponents of the Fiscal Treaty tried to use it to persuade people not to give more control to Europe (with a very thin veneer hiding some particularly virulent anti-German feeling); you had it in the UK last week with the celebrations for the Queen's Jubilee; now we're in for a whole summer of it with Euro2012 followed by the Olympics.

I can't help wondering, though, whether patriotism is really compatible with the Christian principle that everyone in the world is our brother or sister and that we should love everybody with an equal intensity.
What exactly is patriotism? There is no harm in being attached to the landscape, culture, and architecture.

When patriotism gets out of hand, with one nation threatening the peoples of another nation, the motive being power, that is wrong. It is right and proper that the people whose nation is attacked defend their nearest neighbours (family). We are all members of God's family. If a thug attacks the children next door it is right that the childrens' parents do whatever is right and proper to defend their children.

In the UK, some have a problem in defining our nationhood. Some say that those with brown skin cannot possibly be British people, therefore do not fully belong and are not equal. Nobody says that about me, because despite having Irish genes, when I cut myself the blood that oozes out is red, not green. I say one plus one is three, not tree, therefore I am treated as a full British person.
Keep the Faith!

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Rose of York
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Mairtin
Saturday, 9. June 2012, 14:48
I can't help wondering, though, whether patriotism is really compatible with the Christian principle that everyone in the world is our brother or sister and that we should love everybody with an equal intensity.
Is it a Christian principle that we should love everybody with an equal intensity? It is considered normal and acceptable for a man to love his wife more intensely than he loves any other person.
Keep the Faith!

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OsullivanB

"Love one another as I have loved you" Is there any more intense love than that of Jesus for us? It may ultimately be more a question of language rather than anything else.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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James
James
Christ said something akin to :-
"Wipe the dust of the place from your feet and move on"

Somewhere in the new testament - Mark, if I remember rightly
Edited by James, Saturday, 9. June 2012, 16:22.
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K.T.B.

Mairtin
Saturday, 9. June 2012, 14:48
There's been a lot of patriotism about recently, we had it in Ireland a couple of weeks ago when opponents of the Fiscal Treaty tried to use it to persuade people not to give more control to Europe (with a very thin veneer hiding some particularly virulent anti-German feeling); you had it in the UK last week with the celebrations for the Queen's Jubilee; now we're in for a whole summer of it with Euro2012 followed by the Olympics.

I can't help wondering, though, whether patriotism is really compatible with the Christian principle that everyone in the world is our brother or sister and that we should love everybody with an equal intensity.
I'm a little bit wary of patriotism because it can easily turn to overt nationalism, which can be divisive and puts the nation before God and above that of others. Also, it can be idolatrous...and I cringe at the triumphalism of things like The Last Night of the Proms with all that flag waving and Rule Britannia and Land of Hope and Glory being bellowed out at full volume, "little England" xenophobia and gobby, brawling football fans bearing the flag of their nations.

There are things I like very much about my own country, though, so I suppose I am quietly patriotic myself. I suppose the Christian position is to want for others a share in the good things about one's country. When others come to live in Britain, say to share in its relative peace and prosperity, they in turn can bring gifts and enrich our nation.
Edited by K.T.B., Saturday, 9. June 2012, 19:43.
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pat
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I've always had a problem with patriotism, being half -Irish and brought up in a mostly English family, the wider circle of which were a bit suspicious of the Irish. as a result of this, i have never been able to join in with the hoop-la around jubilees and football and whatnot. In cricket, my knee jerk reaction has been to support "anyone but England"

In the 70s when I was a young adult there was a lot of highjacking of the union flag by right wing and fascist groups and a pub with a large union flag out the front was one that you would steer clear of (I'm talking about south London here). These days it is nice to be able to see flags and bunting and know that the intention is harmless.

I don't know whether patriotism is Christian or not, but I still don't trust people who bang on about their love of the motherland/fatherland or get upset when someone dares to contradict their view of being "the best in the world".

Christianity transcends borders and embraces all the peoples of the world. I suppose I would describe myself as an "internationalist".
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Clare
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James
Saturday, 9. June 2012, 16:01
Christ said something akin to :-
"Wipe the dust of the place from your feet and move on"

Somewhere in the new testament - Mark, if I remember rightly
Matthew, Mark, and Luke.

But it's not remotely relevant to this topic!

Matthew 10
 
[11] And into whatsoever city or town you shall enter, inquire who in it is worthy, and there abide till you go thence. [12] And when you come into the house, salute it, saying: Peace be to this house. [13] And if that house be worthy, your peace shall come upon it; but if it be not worthy, your peace shall return to you. [14] And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words: going forth out of that house or city shake off the dust from your feet.
S.A.G.

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PJD

I don't really know, but isn't there something in the Bible about 'each to his own nation'? Would that be relevant to this?

PJD
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Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
Summi Pontificatus (not to be confused with Summorum Pontificum!)

Quote:
 
49. Nor is there any fear lest the consciousness of universal brotherhood aroused by the teaching of Christianity, and the spirit which it inspires, be in contrast with love of traditions or the glories of one's fatherland, or impede the progress of prosperity or legitimate interests. For that same Christianity teaches that in the exercise of charity we must follow a God-given order, yielding the place of honor in our affections and good works to those who are bound to us by special ties. Nay, the Divine Master Himself gave an example of this preference for His Own country and fatherland, as He wept over the coming destruction of the Holy City. But legitimate and well-ordered love of our native country should not make us close our eyes to the all-embracing nature of Christian Charity, which calls for consideration of others and of their interests in the pacifying light of love.
S.A.G.

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OsullivanB

Clare
Saturday, 9. June 2012, 22:44
Summi Pontificatus (not to be confused with Summorum Pontificum!)

Quote:
 
49. Nor is there any fear lest the consciousness of universal brotherhood aroused by the teaching of Christianity, and the spirit which it inspires, be in contrast with love of traditions or the glories of one's fatherland, or impede the progress of prosperity or legitimate interests. For that same Christianity teaches that in the exercise of charity we must follow a God-given order, yielding the place of honor in our affections and good works to those who are bound to us by special ties. Nay, the Divine Master Himself gave an example of this preference for His Own country and fatherland, as He wept over the coming destruction of the Holy City. But legitimate and well-ordered love of our native country should not make us close our eyes to the all-embracing nature of Christian Charity, which calls for consideration of others and of their interests in the pacifying light of love.
Note the date of this piece of pontifical wisdom from His Holiness Pope Pius XII: 20th October 1939.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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Penfold
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Can anything be stupider than that a man has the right to kill me because he lives on the other side of a river and his ruler has a quarrel with mine, though I have not quarrelled with him?
Blaise Pascal

As I walked by the Tigris this quotation was pertinent, Patriotism is a useful rallying cry for politicians who want young men to kill and die for principles they are not themselves prepared to live by; integrity, Honour, Human dignity. and yet sometimes we do have to stand up and say no to the bully and the thug, and we should do it because it is the right thing to do, whatever side of the river one is born on.

We went to war with Nazism not Germans but we killed Germans and Nazism remains. forgive my rambling but as Dr Johnson is said to have remarked, "Patriotism is the refuge of a scoundrel" I hope that Christianity has no place for the scoundrel.
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Emee
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I enjoyed watching the CofE Service for the Jubilee and listening to Rowan Williams' sermon about serving others.

I also enjoyed most of the pop concert!

I think it is ok to celebrate in this way as long as it doesn't get out of hand and divisive.

There was one bloke during the ceremonies kept banging on about England and I thought: "No she's Queen of the whole UK and Commonwealth..."

So I think ones does need to be careful and think before one speaks at such times.
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Rose of York
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Emee
Sunday, 10. June 2012, 13:45
I enjoyed watching the CofE Service for the Jubilee and listening to Rowan Williams' sermon about serving others.

I also enjoyed most of the pop concert!

I think it is ok to celebrate in this way as long as it doesn't get out of hand and divisive.

There was one bloke during the ceremonies kept banging on about England and I thought: "No she's Queen of the whole UK and Commonwealth..."

So I think ones does need to be careful and think before one speaks at such times.
http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1202415.htm

Quote:
 
By Francis X. Rocca
Catholic News Service

SOTTO IL MONTE GIOVANNI XXIII, Italy (CNS) -- When Blessed John XXIII met Queen Elizabeth II of England at the Vatican in 1961, the pope departed from Apostolic Palace protocol by inviting the queen and her husband, Prince Philip, inside his library for an unplanned chat.


Queen of the United Kingdom, not only England. The Kingdom comsists of Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales and England. Calling her Queen of England is as daft as saying the Pope is head of Christianity in Italy.

Elizabeth II is Queen of the dominions, Australia, Canada and New Zealand. She is Head of the Commonwealth but I don't think she is Queen of all Commonwealth countries.
Keep the Faith!

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