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Religion and Spirituality; When does one lose out
Topic Started: Saturday, 12. May 2012, 16:02 (932 Views)
PJD

"and we can develop our souls to the point where we have effectively realised the kingdom whilst still here on earth in our physical bodies; very, very few of us actually reach that point but I think that some of our greatest saints did, people like Therese of Lisieux, for whom undergoing a physical death was little more than a formality."

Yes I can go along with that Mairtin i.e. from texts I have read. St.John of The Cross indicated that the death of the perfect for example did not follow the pattern of ordinary death - as you put it 'little more than a formality'.

PJD
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Anne-Marie

PJD
Saturday, 19. May 2012, 21:20
St.John of The Cross indicated that the death of the perfect for example did not follow the pattern of ordinary death - as 'little more than a formality'.
St.John may be a saint, and I may not be...
But, please, this stuff is utter nonsense.

The body is the body... and the soul is the soul. The two may be together for however many years, but the body still has its sufferings (for most of us, anyway), and death is still death, and not necessarily painless, saint or otherwise.

To talk of death as 'a formality' is nonsense.
That we live feeling God's closeness to us is wonderful, but no-one who really believes God is real (and He is) need fear death if we love Him, however sinful and imperfect we may have been in our weaknesses. Sad we have hurt God, sure.
But we move to God's mercy at bodily death, and we either trust Him or we don't. Either way bodily death is inevitable, so there is little point fretting over it.
Many who have been married have had their rows and other upsets, yet they dtill love and care - is God less a person than them???
Anne-Marie
FIAT VOLUNTAS DEI
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PJD

"But we move to God's mercy at bodily death, and we either trust Him or we don't. Either way bodily death is inevitable, so there is little point fretting over it."

I am not fretting over it Anne-Marie; just responding to something Mairtin posted, that's all.

PJD
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PJD

Incidentally Anne-Marie, it appears to me that it was in fact you yourself who were 'fretting' over matters, by your post 40 above. Which introduced an entirely new perspective into this topic.

PJD
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Anne-Marie

PJD
Sunday, 20. May 2012, 11:34
Anne-Marie, it appears to me that it was in fact you yourself who were 'fretting' over matters, by your post 40 above. Which introduced an entirely new perspective into this topic.
New perspective, I'm happy to introduce... but nah, no fretting on my part - just pointed out in that post the absurdity of a possible argument were James' words to be understood in a particular manner. Hence seeking clarification so we might all know what he intended.
Anne-Marie
FIAT VOLUNTAS DEI
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PJD

Thanks for that reply Anne-Marie. I will be away for a week; will see if anything else comes of all this when I get back.

PJD
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OsullivanB

PJD
Saturday, 19. May 2012, 21:20
"and we can develop our souls to the point where we have effectively realised the kingdom whilst still here on earth in our physical bodies; very, very few of us actually reach that point but I think that some of our greatest saints did, people like Therese of Lisieux, for whom undergoing a physical death was little more than a formality."

Yes I can go along with that Mairtin i.e. from texts I have read. St.John of The Cross indicated that the death of the perfect for example did not follow the pattern of ordinary death - as you put it 'little more than a formality'.

PJD
The stated opinion of St John of the Cross is difficult to reconcile with what we know of the death of the only true 'perfect', Jesus of the Cross.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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Gerard

That might depend on whether one was concentrating on the aspect of "death" or the aspect of "kingdom".

Quote:
 
and we can develop our souls to the point where we have effectively realised the kingdom whilst still here on earth


Looking at this from the kingdom aspect: in Jesus example the kingdom was effectively realised in him before death, and perhaps other people are capable of this.

Though one might say but there was more to come - a glorified body for example.

The bit that made me uneasy was

Quote:
 
we can develop our souls


I thought - no, not we, but the Holy Spirit.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Josephine
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Taking the St. Therese of Lisieux example quoted, she may well have been ready spiritually
and therefore death would have been a "formality" but she died of tuberculosis at a time when
the range of painkillers was limited (to say the least ) compared to today. If she would have used them.


Given what tuberculosis does to the body (in whatever part it may be situated),
I really don't think her death was a "formality".

Was St John thinking of the spiritual aspect only when he wrote that?

What was his age/ state of health when he wrote it?
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Gerard

John was unusually unusual from an early age ;)

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Marts

“I am not my soul” declared Thomas Aquinas. We know that Jesus ascended into heaven body and soul and that Mary was assumed into heaven body and soul.

The soul without a body is not fulfilling its mission. I am my body and soul united. Jesus came to save me, not just my soul. I hope to see the beatific vision, not just my soul.

When I die my body and soul are separated. What happens before the resurrection, I am not certain, but it will be better after the resurrection when I am body and soul united, complete, for all eternity. It is after the resurrection of our bodies that we are fully in the kingdom of heaven.
Jesus told us, his disciples, “When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth” (John 16:13)
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James
James
I have only just come back and seem not to have explained myself properly.
Christ did speak of the afterlife but as PARADISE to the the good thief on the cross.
He also referred to it as " My fathers house where there are many mansions and I go to prepare a place for you"

The word "enter" I think is important - "you enter into the kingdom of heaven - but you do not "enter" into paradise.
You are taken to a place prepared for you that you may continue searching for the "kingdom of heaven" that is lost to you.
People at peace with themselves will not experience these extremes of having "lost" something.
I must admit I do not find myself as having lost "the kingdom of heaven" within me.

I always found the wording to the act of contrition as misleading " for having offended you" which is wrong as God cannot be offended.
Only my relationship with God is offended and I have lost in some small or large way "the kingdom of Heaven" within me.
Penance alone is but an assurance that the relationship on God's side is complete, it may not follow that the soul is no longer troubled.
Depends on the sin and how much "the kingdom of heaven is lost within you".
Some like the father in the prodical son can oly wait until it returns.

At communion God comes down and "enters" into communion with us.
But the troubled soul just cannot yet , and even until after death, fully respond or enter childlike into that communion as it has not or cannot forgive itself or let go of some anger within itself.
Then, all is in abeyance until the soul finally and somwhere "enters" the kingdom of heaven within itself and responds .

In other threads we have been dealing with this both with the sinner and the sinned against.
Hence my meditation on "unless you become as little children, you cannot "enter" the kingdom of heaven"
o
Edited by James, Tuesday, 22. May 2012, 10:50.
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OsullivanB

James
 
I always found the wording to the act of contrition as misleading " for having offended you" which is wrong as God cannot be offended.
Do you think that this afects our understanding of the doctrine of the atonement?
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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James
James
Personally, Yes I think so Bernard.
I have not sinned greatly in the respect mentioned on other threads.
But serious atonement cannot be "in and out of a confession box".
There is something lost that must be regained within oneself.
Hence the "many mansions" mentioned by Christ.
All places of "afterlife" healing depending on the needs of each soul.

Most yopu see going to communion in Church do not have this great abyss between themselves and God.
It is important, I think, to meditate on it in the light of serious sin.
Which can take many forms , as you well know, in your work.

Christ makes the ultimate atonement for all of us but the soul must respond also.

James
Edited by James, Tuesday, 22. May 2012, 11:37.
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Marts

James
Tuesday, 22. May 2012, 10:26
Hence my meditation on "unless you become as little children, you cannot "enter" the kingdom of heaven"
James quotes above "unless you become as little children, you cannot "enter" the kingdom of heaven"; note that Jesus does not mention souls but “you”, the person, body and soul.

Jesus did not come to save our souls, he came to save us. To paraphrase Aquinas, we are not our souls.
Jesus told us, his disciples, “When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth” (John 16:13)
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